State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

Which? Can we have some links please. Names and links have been requested several times and still nothing.

Right - so these extra pupils don’t generate any other costs to resources? The extra marking/admin/books/teaching resources/teachers’ time/admin staff and time/etc. etc. are just nonexistent, then? I can tell you know nothing about teaching.

Imagine your workload was just increased by 20 percent overnight. Would that be that okay with you? Do you think the teachers in those classes think there are no extra costs to having more students if, say, an extra 20 percent more work suddenly appeared in their workload? What about an extra 20 percent workload for the admin staff or the pastoral tutors? An extra percentage cost in providing sports resources, chairs, tables, books, toilet supplies, cleaners, kitchen and dining room staff, and so on and so on?

It’s such a fantasy to say schools can just fit in some extra pupils with no bother as if it doesn’t cost anything. If you think that’s true then I’m sure you’d be perfectly happy to absorb an increase in your workload with no extra time or support.

Maybe you could post your location and some links to your local area too? Obviously there is no reason why anyone wouldn’t want to post their location on an anonymous internet board. 🙄

There have been several recent press reports of local authorities which have no state school places. You can easily google rather than expecting others to do that for you.

Oh come on nobody will track you down from your anonymous MN name. The issue is you can Google but nothing comes up because there is no issue with SF places, quite the reverse.

So apparently now in 6th form colleges across the country numbers are going to shoot in to 20% extra because a tiny fraction of the 6% that are privately educated can no longer afford it. And there seems to be zero reporting of this anywhere .Okkkaaay.

Students have always moved from private to state at Yr12. A few more might now but the numbers will be small.
I realise private school parents are trying to whip MN users up in to some kind of frenzy of concern, but the reality is the removal of VAT exemption will only affect a very small number of students, it’s really not on most people’s radar - they have bigger things to worry about.

I’m in an all-sixth-form area, as I’ve said before, so I fully intend to send my DD state for sixth form. There are some excellent state sixth forms in our area. And here, the competitive admissions policy absolutely means that all the ex-private-school kids nab the places in the best ones (that’s one of the reasons they get such great results). I can tell you first hand that it will happen more with the VAT policy, because it already happens in my area anyway!

All the ex private kids nab the places- oh the arrogance. Being privately educated doesn’t make you better grade wise than state kids by default.

This!

Around double that are in private sixth form - that percentage has always been higher at sixth form level.

There has been reporting of this. You may not think that it matters to more than a few people, but those are people’s children being targeted for disrupted schooling because of their parents’ income. I was not in the group of people who were affected by the Tories’ bedroom tax, but I still gave a fuck about the kids who were — because it’s a crappy unjust nasty policy directly to target children just because of their parents’ income. Tax wealth honestly, if you want to tax wealth. Don’t target children as a proxy. It’s shitty and low and plays to the worst instincts of people who hate others.

Links please.

Many many people think this is a good policy. Nobody targeted children for disrupted schooling, irresponsible parents didn’t cater for flex in finances as regards paying for a very expensive luxury service the majority of the country can’t afford. It’s on them.

As the previous poster said nobody cares because there are far bigger things to worry about so zero point trying to whip up a frenzy over something that really isn’t a problem.

Exactly. Plenty already do move

Some more may move

But in my experience people go private for one of these reasons :

• child is very bright and parents wanted to nurture that, but in reality they would have made it into the top 6 th forms whether they were in state or private
• parents are largely concerned with ensuring their children only mix with private school children (unlikely to be moved)
• child can do ok with an extra push from private (these may have the edge over an equivalent child in state but might not enjoy the rigour of a levels and might need the continued push of private anyway)
• child is not very academic /bright or has SEN - again they are probably better in a private 6th form or moving on to do a vocational type 6th form course.
• money is no object - parents will keep them where they are for all the lovely facilities etc
• child needs to board /is heavily into sport or similar - child will stay where they are

It has been happening for years. Lots of kids go from private to 6th Form Colleges or State Sector. Dome people think it looks good on their Uni applications. My Godson did exactly this and went to Oxford.

Exactly. Those who manage fine in a state sixth form were moving anyway

We were all being told not many months ago that there are heaps of children with SEN or who are ND in the private sector, that their parents pretty much selling the clothes off their own back to send them there. These children who couldn't possibly cope in a state secondary are hardly going to thrive if shunted over at sixth form stage. They will either need a vocational type course or the continued support of the private education.

Those extra sixth form pupils would bring extra funding to the sixth form as funding is per pupil. More pupils = more money = very welcome in my school.

Ah, you’re a pleasant and deep-thinking one:

irresponsible parents didn’t cater for flex in finances as regards paying for a very expensive luxury service the majority of the country can’t afford

Oh, the people whose kids maybe have SEN, maybe have bursaries, could previously just afford it but didn’t magically foresee a mean-spirited anti-education policy being slapped on them mid year are “irresponsible”?

I have voted Labour all my life because I thought it was the option for those who cared about others, and about our social and economic future overall. This government is incompetent and useless, and to be honest, the voters who like this kind of spiteful stuff are also not ones I want to fellow-travel with either. They’re just as thick as the right wingers who voted for Tory spite policies. They simply want to punish other people’s children and don’t care how counterproductive it is or whether it backfires on them either.

One minute they all have SEN so bad their parents will bankrupt themselves to go private, next minute they are going to steal all the top 6 th form spaces

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no skin in the game. The private schools round here are crap and I can afford tutors when my children need /want them. But I am tired of the scare mongering.

Sorry but your post just sounds like a an extreme case of sour grapes .

Yes irresponsible because the vast majority know shit happens and private education is highly unaffordable. If your child moving school is a fate worse than death and you don’t put contingencies in place you are irresponsible. Actually moving schools Isn’t a big deal,kids do it all the time up and down the country with no ill effect. I’m sure those uber resilient privately educated kids with their default superior grades will take it all in their stride.

Exactly, if little Jimmy is so much better than all those state school kids that he's a shoo - in for their 6th form places then surely he will have a glorious time shimmering at the top of the top sets and there's no need for all the handwringing.

In fact there's a new child joining my son's school having moved across country. He was previously at a private school. He is being put in top set for maths and my son and his friend helped show him round and they are very thrilled to have a new addition to their chess club. I think he'll have a great time - if he can keep up with them of course

But the funding per pupil is based on the existing tax take divided between the number of state pupils. If private pupils switch into state, the funding per pupil goes down across the board. This is because there are no “extra” parents for the “extra” pupils — the private school parents have already paid the tax that funds the main education budget.

Any addition from the VAT policy is likely to be minuscule, if it makes any revenue at all (and we don’t even know if it will because the impact was so badly forecasted). And if it doesn’t, the funding per pupil head decreases, not increases! In most schools/sixth forms the additional pupil per head funding won’t bring in enough to employ additional teachers or other staff - so it just increases the workload of those who are already there, and puts additional pressure on the existing state school resources.

It certainly isn’t me who’s sour - we have a full bursary and the school are paying the VAT for us.

I just call a crappy financially illiterate policy a crappy financially illiterate policy when I see one. Rather, all the people foaming at the mouth with delight to stick it to some kids they’ve never met are the sour ones! So desperate that nobody should have anything they don’t have, that they are willing to experiment with everyone’s kids just for spite. (Except the really rich of course. They can pay the VAT anyway and don’t care, so they will just carry on regardless, thanking posters like you as they go.)

I imagine you and he will be equally thrilled if he gets chosen for the maths challenge or the chess team or the place on the Oxbridge outreach course instead of your son! I do hope you’ll enthusiastically cheer him on! 😆

Who honestly cares about chess teams? At my dc’s state school anybody could do the maths challenge or Oxbridge outreach if they were suitable. That’s the beauty of the state sector it’s inclusive.

But the funding per pupil is based on the existing tax take divided between the number of state pupils. If private pupils switch into state, the funding per pupil goes down across the board

No it's not, it's decided by politicians. If the government want to decrease per-pupil funding, then they can, (the Tories did), but it is not an inevitable outcome of more private schools switching to state.