Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

[Eranie]

Looking at 3 private schools around us at the primary level.

School 1 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week February
3 weeks Easter
1 week May

17 weeks total

School 2 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

15 weeks total

School 3 -
6 weeks summer
2 weeks October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

14 weeks total

All these schools seem to be very good academically. All have similar length school days (8.45-3.15 in infants, 8.45-3.30 in juniors). The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors. Others seem to cap class sizes at 20-22, not sure if a TA is always present.

AIBU to wonder how the school with 3 week end of term breaks is keeping academically which so much less time? Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t work so we can handle the long breaks and we live the facilities better at the school with the longer breaks (further out of the city so has more land, therefore tennis courts/pool/better playing grounds. However I’m concerned that with longer breaks they will fall behind academically?

Days are longer and smaller classes

A few people on here have said that private schools have fewer children with SEN - this isn’t true, about 1 in 5 children in the ISC schools have SEND. Children with SEN are not disruptive, disruptive children are disruptive.

I would have never thought longer holiday would harm my DC learning and it hasn't. They have longer school days and smaller classes so they pay them extra attention. They are also ahead of the national curriculum for all subjects. I'm guessing this is what you pay for. 🤣

All in all their holidays are around 3 weeks longer than usual. Not sure how 3 weeks can harm their progress and learning.

Work hard play hard
Longer days
Holiday prep

I went to one, the school hours were 8:30-4, lots of homework and short break/lunchtime. Most of my old school year are in mediocre jobs now. My friends who went to state school seemed to have done much better.

That doesn't mean that there are a representative number of SEND pupils in private schools when compared with state schools.

Absolutely not.

The longer breaks are welcome for my son who leaves the house at 7:30am and is back at 5:30pm. Who then usually has homework to do also. They are very much needed!

I’d imagine most average, well behaved children would do fine on the same hours given no disruptive class mates and smaller class sizes. It’s when the teacher loses half the lesson dealing with disruption things start to go wrong for the rest.

I've taught in both state primary and private prep schools and my take is (as PP have mentioned)

• small class sizes enabling teacher more 1-1 time with each child (much more challenging when you are teaching classes of 30 with no TA)

• having a TA to assist in the classroom, supporting different groups, again to enable the teacher to work with all children

• presence of a TA and smaller class making behavioural problems easier to manage. Eg TA can take disruptive child outside for movement break or read to class while teacher speaks to the child

• more provision of learning support, eg qualified teachers doing individual or small group interventions with children who need it, for literacy, maths, learning skills, emotional regulation.

Essentially, it comes down to budget and the fact that the private school can afford to provide the small classes and adult support that state schools would like to but are unable to afford.

Also, while there is such a thing as affluent neglect (wealthy parents not spending time with their children and relying on paid Nannies for example- I probably haven't explained well- google it!), as most parents go on holidays with their children and can afford fun holiday clubs, the isolation and ill effects of long holidays that children with more deprived backgrounds experience are less likely.

Of course private schools are selective!

The children tend to do well because they have smaller class sizes and fewer disruptive students.

I disagree with them always having longer hours in the day though-there were a couple of children in my road who went to private and we left the house at exactly the same time in the mornings/afternoons as them to take and collect.

I'm very surprised at the poster saying their kids were in on bank holidays and Inset days. Why didn't they have bank holidays-was it a boarding school? I hope the staff still got CPD!

8.30 -3.30 is longer than state - by an hour or more per day. 5+ hours a week.

smaller class sizes and less disturbed classes - voila, better outcomes

oh and ( generally) parents who value education and support and encourage it unlike ( some) at state who literally don’t give a shit . Can’t underestimate this impact

Reading this just makes me think this is exactly why state schools do badly. The difference between what you get in private schools and state is huge. Money talks.

Private schools will have some SEN pupils such as those with dyslexia but those pupils will be getting focussed support.

Longer school day, smaller classes & a focus on extracurricular activities.

I imagine that on the whole the people who can afford private are higher achievers. So it would make sense that their children might achieve decent grades.

Also people who can afford private school can add cultural capital to their children's lives with trips abroad & days out to places. That adds to their understanding of the world. I realise not all private parents are rich but even the ones who aren't rich will probably do things like museums, National trust, walks type days out.

My GC start at 8.30. GS in prep, can start
at 8.00, Wrap around care. He finishes at 3.40. GD in secondary school finishes at 4.40 and has to take part In after school clubs sport. Also lots of weekend sport, The school justifies long holidays because they say they have longer days and are pushed academically. Also my GDs school has boarders and longer holidays allows them more time to travel home.

The longer days are for more extra curriculars.

An hour of maths in a class with 16 kids, no disruption, a teacher and a ta is an hour of maths. An hour of maths in a class of 30 with 3 or 4 kids who aren’t able to behave and not enough staff to control them can mean no maths at all. This is the sole reason i started paying for my children to go to school (as well as paying tax for the state school place I should have been entitled to). They were learning nothing despite being st school all day and it only became clear when I homeschooled in covid what had been going on.

can you view their end of school results (year 6 sats) that should tell you performance. I have taught in state schools of various sizes- when you have 30 kids it takes forever just to get pencils/I need a worksheet/ I’ve lost this. When you have 20 kids you have a third more time! Especially in a class of 16 with a ta as well time will be so much more efficient. I now actually home school and can get a whole days work into about 3 hours cuz it’s no faff time. We also have private school ish holiday times

Our school is:

2 weeks October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week Feb
3 weeks Easter
1.5 weeks May
8.5 weeks Summer
= 19 weeks total

On top of this pretty much every parent takes 1-2 weeks in term holiday, which the school is completely ok with.

During the time in class they can be more focused on the individual child and nurturing, mainly because:

• Class sizes capped at 12 in pre-prep (up to end of year 2), and 15 in prep (up to year 8).
• There is a TA in each class, the TAs in most classes are trained teachers who are either semi retired or have young children.
• They have separate teachers for music, drama, swimming, PE & Forest School. This frees up time for the teacher to prep and do admin meaning they can 100% focus on the class when they are there.
• They are read with 1-on-1 every single day, even if it’s just a single page, and a new book is sent home every single day.
• All the parents are very invested in their child’s education, this not only helps the individual but also helps with the dynamic of the whole class.
• They don’t have to follow the curriculum, they can be creative with their learning which is more engaging. This works because they can’t be lazy about it as they have to ‘win business’.
• As you get through the years, it gets selective. Our school isn’t academically selective, and takes a lot of children with SEN, but if you were impacting others learning and a solution couldn’t be found (self funded 1-2-1, a part time timetable, or happily doing cool down time) you’d be shown the door.

Even with unlimited funding, I don’t think you could achieve all the above in a state school. Because they aren’t selective and they don’t need to ‘win’ business.

So much time is wasted in schools due to poor behaviour, poor management, poor staff, etc. If children are there wanting to learn, there’ll be less wasted time, and independent schools have more freedom to be more efficient,better managed and more freedom to get rid of naff staff. Kids actually wanting to learn are going to learn quicker by concentrating in lessons, doing homework, etc,

15 weeks is the normal amount of holidays in Irish primary schools which run from about 8.50am to 2.30 each day (1.30pm for the 2 youngest years).
OP are you asking how does the school with the 2 extra weeks holidays keep pace with the 2 schools acedemically, or how do schools with such long holidays met the learning outcomes required? If the former 2 weeks won't make make difference and if the former I guess learning in the v focused way private schools can means the children actually need the longer break in order to be able to thrive the next term, plus the parents are likely to provide learning opportunities during the breaks with travel etc

This length of holiday is similar to the long holidays we got in the 60s/70s I think .Defo had 3 weeks for Christmas and Easter!.I would just choose the School you prefer .If you at a private School the the education ethos is strong anyway

I said that, because it was the case in my DC’s school in the 90s, but I’m really pleased to hear it isn’t the case now. And I absolutely agree SEN children are not disruptive, but they can (and should) be resource intensive.

8.30 -3.30 is longer than state

My DC is at state and does those exact hours. The school round the corner does 8-3, and another local one does 8.30-3, but they only have half an hour for lunch, whereas where my DC is has an hour.

You say that but at our state school where they have the traditional set of holidays they waste the last week before the summer hols anyway not doing any work and the first week in September is wasted too. I'd say it's probably the same in terms of learning hours. The private schools probably don't waste time when they are in school and meant to be learning.

My DS went to a private school and his days were slightly longer and the class size was much smaller so they got more attention and got more done. They also had more homework and a shorter lunch break.