Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

[Eranie]

Looking at 3 private schools around us at the primary level.

School 1 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week February
3 weeks Easter
1 week May

17 weeks total

School 2 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

15 weeks total

School 3 -
6 weeks summer
2 weeks October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

14 weeks total

All these schools seem to be very good academically. All have similar length school days (8.45-3.15 in infants, 8.45-3.30 in juniors). The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors. Others seem to cap class sizes at 20-22, not sure if a TA is always present.

AIBU to wonder how the school with 3 week end of term breaks is keeping academically which so much less time? Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t work so we can handle the long breaks and we live the facilities better at the school with the longer breaks (further out of the city so has more land, therefore tennis courts/pool/better playing grounds. However I’m concerned that with longer breaks they will fall behind academically?

Small class sizes, specialist teachers, less disruption. I think the last one is key, tbh. They spend their whole day learning.

Also lots of homework, even from reception

I went to a very academic girls' boarding school (over 80% A*/A at A level) - current holidays are:
1 week October
3 weeks 5 days Christmas
1 week Feb
3 weeks 5 days Easter
1 week June
9 weeks 3 days summer
So over 19 weeks holidays a year. But lessons were 8.45am to 4.40pm (with breaks for lunch and tea) and until midday on Saturdays. Sports were more at weekends, not so much during the normal school day. It was all crammed in during the shorter terms.

I went to a similarly-academic day school after that - current holidays are:
2 weeks October
3 weeks 3 days Christmas
1 week Feb
3 weeks Easter
1 week June
8 weeks summer

So roughly the same, 18 weeks in total. No Saturday school, but a slightly longer day than most state schools, lessons started 8.40am and finished 4pm.

My ds' senior school has 16 weeks holiday but they start at 8.45 and finish lessons at 4 They do an hour prep before getting the bus home. Normally another hour of work at home.

They aren't a selective school, yet get 100% through English and Maths GCSE every year. Their exam results are generally double those of the local state school despite having a significant number of autistic pupils. They don't hot house children, DS is a relaxed and laid back teen.

It's down to class sizes (about 23), no disruption, having the same specialist teachers every day, and a culture that rewards achievement of any kind. No-one gets bullied or called a swot. Phones are banned during school hours so fewer distractions.

So many things - here's why we chose our kids school:

• much smaller class sizes and more TA = dedicated support
• wide range of curriculum so kids can choose what they love/ they excel at
• wide range of after school clubs in a variety of academic and non academic subjects to create love of learning
• excellent level of communication - teachers aren't over-worked so have the time to respond to emails/ take meetings (an absolute game changer if there's an issue)
• no bullying for "nerds" - it's really encouraged!
• better access to online tools to help them learn.
• any issues are investigated - so it's not an end of term "johnnys not performing in maths" after a couple of weeks they'll say "johnnys not performing in maths. All his other teachers say he's sticking to what's expected, we've had a word with him to see if he's finding anything particularly difficult, so this is what we think it is and this is how we will help him"

I agree on disruptions etc wasting potential learning time. However another key point is that private schools don't have to follow the full National Curriculum, which is ridiculously crammed full. If that were condensed and made fit for purpose, allowing pupils to actually engage with and so retain the knowledge, it would be possible for less school days to result in better learning.

It’s simple, the school day is slightly longer and with classes of 16 compared to 30 plus in state schools children get far more support.

IMO, academic attainment is all about parental involvement and study habits at home. That’s the reason a lot of Indian/ Chinese children do well academically. They study every day at home (after school).

This

Plus - get over it

@Eranie

Just my opinion, but I’ve worked in two private schools with very good reputations.

Behind the scenes, I think most parents would be shocked at what goes on.

I’ve also worked in a few different state schools, and I think the school that I’ve enjoyed working in the most and had the best ethos was a state school.

IMO, private schools are very good at ‘show’. They are run as a business, so they tend to get that bit right. Inspections are not as stringent as OFSTED. They do have good facilities and excellent extra curricular activities. However teachers are often extremely overworked, a difficult work culture because of it’s business ethos, very demanding parents who are often given in to to (even if they are wrong), even though class sizes are smaller, private schools are struggling due to the VAT hit and (this is Early Years) ratios are not adhered to (sometimes dangerously). I’d don’t think quality of the teachers employed are better than state schools - the best teachers I’ve seen are mainly state school teachers.

I do think a good private school at senior school level is worth the money, but my goodness do some very, very careful research…

And in terms of holidays, I think it’s something to do with having a longer school day than state - so they get longer holidays. At least that was the original idea. However I think staff are far more stretched - emotionally and workload - and NEED that holiday, more than a state school teacher.

They aren't a selective school, yet get 100% through English and Maths GCSE every year

They are selective. If they’re a private school, they select by parental income.

At my husbands school (and the school his little brother now attends) it was due to hot housing, no play based learning, no carpet time etc.

A decent private school will work you hard. That’s the basic truth. My children had daily homework throughout prep. Lockdown - virtually uninterrupted education there. Even factoring in theatre trips and fixture days, they’re well ahead.

But it’s not hard to see why: No real crowd management, no social problems, engaged parents, small classes, and a fraction of the paperwork for teachers.

Posted too soon.

Additionally, to get this result, they are selecting in other ways. I don’t know how, because I don’t know which school, but they absolutely are, otherwise this is impossible.

They may also be doing the the iBacc, which state schools aren’t allowed to do anymore.

And they will remove anyone who isn’t likely to pass. State schools can’t remove DC as easily

Yep. This also.

@FatAgain

Social problems : worst behaviour I’ve witnessed has been in private schools

Most difficult parents : private school

Most paperwork (a lot of it meaningless) : private

Largest number of children/fewest adults : private

I was once left alone in a playground/one 18 year old unqualified gap student with a school full of 2 to 7 year olds (over 100 children with many that needed a 1:5 adult ratio) for about 30 minutes.

I went to a private school. It was essentially 9 to 5 except Wednesdays which finished early afternoon. Clubs were lunchtime or after 5. Summer holidays were a couple of weeks longer than state, Easter and Christmas one week longer, but half terms were only two days.

Occasionally had to go in Saturdays for sports but it wasn’t regular.

Generally smaller class sizes and practically zero disruption were probably the main contributors to good outcomes.

My colleague's son was removed from a couple of private schools because he wasn't clever enough and had to find a less academic school.

Let's assume that in a class of 15 (max) in private vs a class of 30 (state) you effectively gain 10 minutes per lesson/hour in dicking about time - calming the class, behaviour management, organisation even writing the title/finding all the fucking kids for the glue sticks that's an hour a day gained. A whole day a week of extra learning time. In 5 weeks you've 'gained' a whole academic week which can account for better results or extra holidays.

Your 3rd example only has one extra week holiday than any school I've worked in. Imagine 38 weeks of learning where you've actually gained 7 whole weeks of education just because you've not got the incessant and invidious low level behaviour distracting the teacher and other kids in the classroom.

Quite a lot of academic advantage in private schools is not coming from the school at all but from the home environment.

Research by the EEF indicates that home circumstances are 4 times more influential on progress than anything a school can do.

There is also much more homework and often project work too. My daughter is at a private IB school and she has monthly and yearly projects - this year her project is a dragonfly education app which she has chosen and last year she designed and produced a cookbook. They also have summer holiday projects too. Last year was a strategy board game on Roman history. But choose the school you like the best don’t worry about holiday times.

As others have said OP, the days are much more intense. The ‘school hours’ on paper may look similar to the local state schools but expectations surrounding homework and norms around extracurricular are much higher. My two are always at the point of collapse by the (longer) holidays.

Average school day for my DC in year 1 + 3

06.45 Up, shower, teeth, dress
07.15 breakfast
07.45 30 minutes homework and/or music practice before school
08.15 Leave for school
08.45-15.30 school
15.30-16.30 A different extracurricular club every day at school. This is the norm for their cohort (ball sports, drama, choir, cubs, fencing, cooking, art, tennis etc)
17.00 Home
17.00-18.00 Homework
18.30 Dinner
19.00 Bath, story, bed

Literally no down time at aside from playtime at school and their clubs (which they choose and enjoy) Factor in also norms around each child doing an instrument or two, weekend sports and lots of encouragement to enter external competitions in drama, writing, music etc

To follow on, the intensity around homework, plus small class sizes (10-15 in the DC school), TA for every class even at this small size, children with additional learning needs accessing paid for support on a regular basis, strict expectations around discipline…)