Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

[Eranie]

Looking at 3 private schools around us at the primary level.

School 1 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week February
3 weeks Easter
1 week May

17 weeks total

School 2 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

15 weeks total

School 3 -
6 weeks summer
2 weeks October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

14 weeks total

All these schools seem to be very good academically. All have similar length school days (8.45-3.15 in infants, 8.45-3.30 in juniors). The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors. Others seem to cap class sizes at 20-22, not sure if a TA is always present.

AIBU to wonder how the school with 3 week end of term breaks is keeping academically which so much less time? Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t work so we can handle the long breaks and we live the facilities better at the school with the longer breaks (further out of the city so has more land, therefore tennis courts/pool/better playing grounds. However I’m concerned that with longer breaks they will fall behind academically?

my daughters class size in capped at 1:10 for English but 1:6 on the 2 days a week she does school in French. The kids are moved along at their own pace as the teacher can give personal attention, as there is also a TA in those class sizes. There is also virtually no disruption during the lessons as poor behaviour isn’t tolerated and a child causing disruption would be asked to leave. There is also very engaged parents and being the most academic in the class is a badge of honour not being bullied. She was at a private school before in another country and it wasn’t as good, class size 1:20 less academically competitive. She did well in her first school but she is absolutely flying at this school.

If you're trying to use this as a proof that term time holidays are fine, then it's not. Because missing school when everyone else is there inevitability means you've missed something that won't be repeated.

If you're looking at it thinking that state schools could take more holiday. I agree. I think we have some of the shortest holidays and most children would benefit from a longer break and would ultimately learn better.
I'd go for 8-9 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks half term, a month at Christmas and, 2-3 weeks at Easter.
I think children would learn better with more time to relax.

My two have had 17 weeks holiday since lower prep and it's fine. They did however finish at 4pm from Y3 upwards. In senior school the lunch is very long as most clubs were run then so most kids could get the school bus home.

An extra 3 weeks holiday compared to state schools is neither here nor there IMO.

Agree with the comment about parental input.

Family member with child in large state secondary school.

Excellent parental input + school program meant that she achieved a grade 9 sitting a GCSE a year early.

Absolutely, less is actually more, I think we overload children in state schools so they really struggle to retain the sheer amount that is thrown at them on such a rigorous basis.

whereas a state may be 8.50-3.10. So that is best part of an hour longer per day. That isn’t insignificant.

dd is at a private secondary that is 8.40 to 4, she finds it hugely different to when she was in state and they finished at 3.20. It’s an extra lesson every day.

They work them very hard in term time, she’s needed the holidays.

In what capacity did you work?

I read recently nearly 50% of private school students get extra time in exams compared to 30% in state schools.

It would be interesting to see what results and grades private school students would achieve if they were only marked against other private school students results and not against state school students results.

IMO most children will reach their potential if parents are actively involved and engaged in their education whether that be in state or private.

The key for my DC was to allow them to pick their own secondary school/college (even though they were not the best for results in our area at the time) and they always knew we would change schools and even areas if any bullying occurred beyond levels they felt they could cope with. Thankfully, my DC school days are over now. They are at Uni after getting the A level grades they had set for themselves.

I’ve sent children to both state and private schools.

Both are/were lovely schools, but despite the state school being nurturing and a really good school all round - there’s just not so much academic progress made. The school is not doing anything wrong, but behaviour is less calm and so more time is spent returning classes to order. I have also found a difference in expectation - my child’s amount of work, expectations on quality of work, etc were all higher at private.

Unless all student come from homes where education is valued and the need for good behaviour is drilled into them by parents, the larger classes in state mean things are much harder for those teachers. Private has small classes with well behaved kids (as the disruptive are asked to leave).

I disagree slightly with a PP. I think 8-9 weeks in the summer is too long a break. I’d go for two week half terms as standard as I think
that would really renergise children. Also a two week May half term would give families another holiday time to do a weeks holiday in Europe without needing to miss school- you could fly Tues- Tues etc.

I don’t generally buy into the argument about missing school for a (package) holiday as it’s so disruptive for the teachers, but in reality travel and new experiences are good for kids so longer holidays would help facilitate that.

As I always do on these threads, pointing out not all private schools exclude kids with SEN. DS is at a private school and they are great with SEN (DS included).

FWIW he is yr3 and starts the day at 8.25, finishes at 3.35 then does an activity until 4.45. Infants was 8.30-3.15. Local state school is 8.55-3.10 so it’s easy to see where the hours add up.

I assume your son’s school is private? In that case they absolutely are selective!

Also about private schools being selective.

Well it depends.

A private school I worked in liked to appear selective, had assessment days etc.

The reality was - they were so desperate for pupils they said yes to everyone.

But I guess a selling point is - your child has passed our exams, well done.

If a private school is bursting at the seams, maybe they are actually selective.

But are many private schools bursting at the seams??

@Bubblegumtatoos I've worked in schools in both sectors. The extra time has to be applied for and backed up by evidence for the exam board. You can't make generalisations about any type of school over another..some privates are fiercely selective and academic, others quite the opposite but attract high numbers of SEN due to the pastoral ethos which will likely produce the higher % of extra time.

Why are there ALWAYS people on these threads who look for any way to try and twist the knife on private schools' kids achievement? As ever there's doublethink present ..they're so much better it's totally unfair but at the same time, state schools can provide just as good outcomes so they're unnecessary. Which is it?

Surely we all remember how many weeks at school were wasted before school holidays with tv time, games etc.
It was essentially compulsory childcare, especially those final weeks in July.
It probably works out the same, if not more learning hours in a private setting.

This. Irish schools have lots of time off and no one blinks an eye about taking a few days off to go on holiday during term time...and their outcomes are great. It's not necessary to be in school all the time to do well at school.

It would be interesting to see what results and grades private school students would achieve if they were only marked against other private school students results and not against state school students results.

Complete misunderstanding here of how exams work. And the purpose of education.

Different GCSEs for example have completely different pass rates and grade distributions. The urban myth that there is a quota simply isn’t true. Try comparing combined science with individual sciences for example, where the entry of the latter is more able. The information is publicly available.

The purpose of education is skills and knowledge to take you onto the next step not what number you get for an exam. So the better educated you are the better you will be prepared for the next stage, eg A levels or degree whatever the level may be.

I don’t know about extra time, personally I was always ready to get out by the end of the exam!

I am just reporting on the recent statistics I have read. I believe a deeper analysis is needed and is planned in the future. I will hold my judgement til all the results and facts are in.

School starts at 8.20am and lessons finish at 4pm. After lessons it’s sport or extra work til 5.15. After that matches on some days, traveling back from other schools. Plus Saturday school normal lessons in the morning and matches in the afternoon. Sundays also have matches.

Smaller classes, no disruption. They do not take any nonsense. People get removed very quickly if there’s a behaviour issue.

So of the extra holiday time can be trips abroad or similar. Also competitions are always running in areas of expertise so some very late nights, memorably one occasion when they left school at 7.30 am and returned at midnight. Then back at school for 8am. Yes, they have a longer holiday in the summer but they have very long days. Also remember no inset days and they work on bank holidays.

Three DC all went to independent secondary school after state primary.

Streaming to make sure everyone works at the best rate for them. Bright kids progress unhindered by slower ones to achieve those all important (for marketing) grades.

There wasn’t much evidence of special needs or disability being catered for when mine were at school, might be different now.

Bad behaviour is not tolerated, so disruption is minimised. Really badly behaved pupils will simply be chucked out, no faffing about with “time out”.

There is lots of enrichment activity, school trips abroad etc, but most get it at home anyway so the school isn’t required to fulfil that brief, or find affordable ways of doing so. Overall there’s much less “padding” in the school day and more time given to purposeful learning.

I am talking about like for like only.

A level Maths private school results only.

A level Maths State school results only.

Your analysis makes no sense!!! Comparing two different exams is not what I proposed.

Also about private schools being selective.
Well it depends.

It doesn’t. They absolutely are selective.

I think an area where private schools can and do shine is inclusion. Whereas state schools tend to ‘off load’ children with SEND because they are full.
I think - as SEND places are funded or partly funded by the LA, private schools could do well to attract more SEND families.

Why are there ALWAYS people on these threads who look for any way to try and twist the knife on private schools' kids achievement? As ever there's doublethink present ..they're so much better it's totally unfair but at the same time, state schools can provide just as good outcomes so they're unnecessary. Which is it?

It’s probably both. If you live in an area where the local comp is shite then they ARE much better. If your kid is an a posh selective state grammar they are unnecessary. Of course the real issue as someone who is in the first camp is it’s also very unfair to not have access to a really good state school.

Some are more selective than others though.

DC is at a selective prep which feeds through to a senior school with some of the best results in the country. They have similar holidays to those you’ve described & school days are 7.45 until 4pm as standard extending to 6pm with clubs, music lessons etc.

I think the potential difference to a state school is that the children are still doing school work/being tutored over the holidays as they are often assessed when they return (both academic and fitness).

DCs school has a very different ethos to our local state schools and I think the holidays are treated differently.