Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

[Eranie]

Looking at 3 private schools around us at the primary level.

School 1 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week February
3 weeks Easter
1 week May

17 weeks total

School 2 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

15 weeks total

School 3 -
6 weeks summer
2 weeks October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

14 weeks total

All these schools seem to be very good academically. All have similar length school days (8.45-3.15 in infants, 8.45-3.30 in juniors). The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors. Others seem to cap class sizes at 20-22, not sure if a TA is always present.

AIBU to wonder how the school with 3 week end of term breaks is keeping academically which so much less time? Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t work so we can handle the long breaks and we live the facilities better at the school with the longer breaks (further out of the city so has more land, therefore tennis courts/pool/better playing grounds. However I’m concerned that with longer breaks they will fall behind academically?

@yellowpetals

I agree, I think it’s the business aspect that makes it a bit ‘smokescreen’-y. I couldn’t find the data on uk.gov - not for GCSE’s.
The independent school award was TES, but why are they giving an award to a school that is borrowing millions from the LA which they can’t repay? They must have known - at the time it was given - that the school was having issues.

The cynic in me would say the award is given to generate more business for that school.

A private school I worked at 20 years ago did do SATS. I remember the papers arriving and being unwrapped. I wasn’t working in that Year group, but I can remember raising my eyebrows at how it was administered - compared to the state school I’d just come from.

I also remember a parent with a results list, asking where our school was. It did include some private schools in the area. I asked the head and was told ‘we don’t publish’.

So some schools were at that time, but I don’t think this happens now. And they moved away from doing SATS to their own exam.

I think the shocking/suspicious thing to me - is how much happens to support business. And that business decisions often compromise moral decisions. E.g. no planning or activities for the outdoor area unless there is an inspection or open day event.

@TwentySecondsLeft i intentionally chose a school that doesn’t do SATS - I don’t like the way it shapes the educational experience, with so much time and energy going into test prep. Our school does assessments 2x a year to track pupil learning at an individual and class level to identify any gaps or support areas, but it isn’t shared with parents unless you specifically ask. Not publishing the data takes the pressure off the teachers and the students and allows everyone to focus on what really matters, which is individual student achievement. At the end of the day, where a school falls in the league tables says nothing about how my individual child will be supported.

@Labraradabrador

In state, I joined a school on special measures and I think SATS really helped focus the school. Yes we did lots of practice papers etc, but there was a concerted effort and a method of measuring progress against other schools in the area. This was a school in a deprived area - the children weren’t traumatised by SATS. They ended up being the top school for reading in the area.

I would imagine most private schools are doing the same exams as state at senior levels, because universities recognise that standardised exam.

The private school I worked at did SATS and was financially stable. There was a change in head, numbers were falling with an empty classroom which they covered by opening up to a younger age. It seems as they got more worried about numbers, the SATS stopped, their own methods came in, the ‘we don’t publish data’ ethos and they stopped being selective. So ok - perhaps it does help pupils, but perhaps there are also other reasons?

@TwentySecondsLeft when tests become the outcome rather than a tool in education it is a problem for me. Some level of standardised testing has a role in education, but I think we must be careful not to centralise it, especially with younger children. We can only test measurable things, but not everything that is important is readily measurable via standardised testing, and with the way SATs are conducted and elevated I see many schools losing sight of the bigger picture.

Doing rounds and rounds of practice papers may not be traumatising, but it is really fucking boring. We didn’t make it far in the state sector, but local schools seem to spend all of y6 on SATs, which sounds like a colossal waste of time for most students. I saw a milder version when in our first parent meeting for reception when teacher wanted to discuss concerns about dc tracking for y2 SATs, and found out the plan was to pull dc into extra support groups to help ensure their readiness for the phonics screener and then SATs, meaning they would miss forest school and art and other fun activities so they could drill phonics. Thank god we moved to private where dc could learn at their own pace, which at different times has been faster or slower than the national curriculum might dictate, while maintaining a positive association with learning and an independent curiosity.

@Labraradabrador

I do think it’s ultimately about happiness. So if a child is happier in private then of course it’s the right choice.
Both schools I’ve worked in have excellent facilities and offer lots of extra curricular opportunities.

About placing too much emphasis on testing…I think teaching was easier 20 years or so ago. I think - particularly in the early years - it has become quite chaotic.

And when I did SATS in state, I honestly can’t remember any distressed children. In fact they seemed to enjoy it.
But then over the years, teachers/parents have questioned it. I don’t know. Are we moving forward in the right direction with our education system?? I’m not sure we are. To me, moving away from a lack of focus, planning, assessment, structure is part of the reason.

Smaller classes, less disruptive children, engaged parents, normally 1/2 TAs as well as teacher per class. Smaller intervention groups for phonics etc for those struggling. We “race” through the curriculum because of this at our children’s private school and then have loads of time for sports, drama, dance etc etc .

problem in state school is classes are bigger and the demographic is much wider so a teacher can be trying to teach someone who is very bright and someone who can barely read or write. So they have to kind of pitch somewhere in the middle. At private school kids tend to have successful and you assume brighter parents who do homework with kids so the basics are all covered.

Smaller classes, longer school day and less behaviour interruptions. I teach in a state comp and have been saying for years that educational outcomes would massively improve with smaller classes.

@Newusername3kidss

Think that’s why I came here to post!

The most disruptive children and worst adult to child ratio I’ve had is in private.

There will not be SEN in the class - so the averages will be better
The parents input will on average be greater
Smaller class size with higher ratio of teaching staff and no SEN. They'll take each child out of classroom daily and stuff like that, which enhances reading - regardless whether reading is being done at home.
Longer school day and shorter terms times so they will still get the correct amount of hours in each term but in a shorter time frame. The more you pay the more holidays you get.
The longer school day will include sports/games which is often shown to enhance desk learning and academic results. The children will have run off their energy before sitting down to learn so don't have ants in their pants

these are just my observations of a public primary school and just some of the things I have seen which may lead to better outcomes.

Where have you seen that because an LA loaning an independent school sounds incredibly incorrect

@MikeRafone

Wow. Yes there will be children with SEN and EHCP’s…

@twistyizzy

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ymj2l8ye6o.amp

Wow that is crazy but I can't imagine that there are many such cases?

The idea that there are no SEN in private is categorically untrue and has already been dealt with on the thread. PP might not have 'observed' any SEN but generally speaking you can't 'see ' autism, ADHD, dyslexia etc by watching children running around a playground. Nor will you be told as a random parent who those children might be. My Ds has autism, adhd, tourettes and global development delay and he looks like any other child. And when I asked the SENCO if there was some kind of support group for parents with SEN in the school she explained simply that there was not and they were not permitted to identify any such children to others due to this being private medical information. As i said upthread our school's ISI report states there is just shy of 30% of children with SEN in the school. That's circa 200 children.

I think an area where private schools shine is with SEN provision.
State schools are full so they try to off load SEN pupils.

Private schools are trying to fill places.
I really think this could be a solution for private schools and the VAT hit, as I think SEN pupils would be partly funded by the LA so not so much cost to the parent.

As i understand it, currently @TwentySecondsLeft (and I don't disagree with you just to be clear!) currently pupils at a private school with an EHCP that specifically names that school as being the only one that meets their needs are exempt from VAT. And I think this means the LA has to pay the fees or at least part of them - at least this is the case for one student i know whose mother is a good friend of mine and who explained their situation to me. Which is a bit of a red herring in many ways because very few LAs will now accept EHCPs nominating a private school this during a time when their own finances are stretched.

Also, like many other parents we never went down the EHCP route because why go through the bother with the LA (and indeed expense just going through the process costs TO the LA right from the beginning) when we could pay for private ourselves and just went ahead and did that?

I think it would make sense (among other things) that if instead the current government put the incredibly rare 'if you have an EHCP you are exempt' proviso on it they also alleviated VAT on students who are in receipt of DLA- which one of my DCs is. But that would mean the government would actually have thought things through and would have shown some sort of duty of care to SEN students failed by the state sector, when in reality - to my mind at least- they actually just want to punish those 'sharp elbowed private school parents' as Bridget Phillipson calls it, and to destroy the private sector entirely by stealth.

We have a parents of send support group at our school and it is incredibly valuable. It is open to all - I think it was originally started by a mum who convinced the school to give her a private space for an hour and put a note in the newsletter. It is all voluntary, so the school isn’t disclosing anything about individual students. Sometimes they have someone from the send team there and sometimes it is just parents. If this is something you want there might be a way around the school’s concerns.

I think that's a brilliant idea. I did say to our SENCO she was free to pass my details along to anyone else who may have asked. But your idea is better and more proactive- I'll look into it thanks!

When I was at private school we had longer holidays but the school day was 9-4 Monday- Friday and 9 -12:30 on a Saturday unless you were in a sports team in which case you had PE on Sat afternoon making it 9-4 6 days per week.

@TwentySecondsLeft it is generally all or nothing with LA paying for private schools - either the school is named in the EHCP and the LA is on the hook for fees or it isn’t and the parent is responsible for fees and VAT.

@HRHTheQueenMuffinTop

My DS was awarded his EHCP just before he was due to start reception and I had to battle with state to get his place, with one (faith) school refusing his placement.

I don’t know what would have happened if his current school had stated ‘cannot meet needs’, but I think in terms of cost to the LA (transport, a special school placement) - I think a place in our local private school would have been a cheaper option. I would have been willing to part fund this with the LA.

And the children with additional needs at my current private school are very well cared for, and with great progress made. I get the impression that state see SEN as a burden because they are stretched, whereas private want custom so will do their best to support those needs.

@Labraradabrador

I wonder if there could be a solution there though, LA’s working with private schools that are struggling financially - to support the SEN crisis.

I had a friend who had her child expelled at 4 due to ASD, from a public school - it happens sadly

Public school ie highly selective + elite, or independent school? Because there is a fundamental difference

I think there are many ways that the private sector (mainstream and specialist) could be helpful in supporting send children, and in some cases that might even work out cheaper for individual children. unfortunately the government are heading in the opposite direction wrt strategy (inso much as one can guess given lack of tangible plans) and LAs have mostly painted themselves into a box by denying all requests and delaying all aspects of statutory the process in the hopes of wearing as many parents down as possible. Sadly I don’t see much motivation from any corner of government to actually tackle the send crisis.