to think some people think WFH should be a constant nose to the grindstone?

[Yodeloo]

I think some jobs are like that definitely. Heavy workload, helplines etc

Some people think all WFH should be like this and get horrified because someone hung some washing out or helped out a family member for a short time. Plenty of jobs have flexibility and it is about getting the job done not just being present in front of the computer non stop.

I get all my life admin done throughout the day around work. I do an exercise class most mornings and then start work later on the days I WFH. I will meet up with friends, work on my side business. Nobody cares at my work. All targets are met consistently.

Is it jealousy that people get so upset?

I work from home, set hours, and I'm at my desk working, apart from taking short comfort breaks, lunch, making a cup of tea. If I need to do laundry, walk the dog, pick up a parcel, I do it at lunchtime or before/after work. DCs are older and at uni so no distractions in that sense.
Those saying they can meet targets while still using work time to go to the gym etc, maybe your targets/workload aren't quite right and you could raise it with your manager.
It's a privilege to WFH, i appreciate it, and I treat it exactly the same as an office-based job, apart from the location.

Yes, I'm similar in that a big part of my job is to come up with creative ideas and to link my industry to the wider culture (arts, politics, sports, everything).

The way to do that well isn't to keep my nose to the laptop grindstone and churn through work-related tasks. It's to keep my mind healthy and active and relaxed. So yes, if I don't need to be contactable and there isn't a specific time I need to be at my desk, I'll go for a run in the middle of the day. In the summer I'll sit outside with a glass of wine and a book. On really quiet days I'll even watch a film. My best ideas come from those situations, not staring at Teams for eight hours straight, so I don't even consider that taking the piss.

We have an agile working policy. It was introduced during the pandemic when wfh became the default. We no longer have set working hours and work flexibly to suit both our needs and performance.

So, there’s no expectation that we’re logged on for 7.5 hours a day, or do 37 hours a week. If people want to go to a gym class, long lunch, school play, clean the bathroom, whatever - it’s actively encouraged. As long as they meet their targets, it’s all good. My admin team do have to cover office hours as they have to answer the phones. But they do this between them and flexibly and it works really well.

One of my team found it really hard to adjust. We used to record our hours, which seems archaic now. He was convinced agile working was a licence for some to take the piss. But a few years in, he’s convinced. It’s transformed the way we work for the better.

Nobody has to take my exercise routine into account. I get back to people once it is finished just like I would if I am working on a task.

I think people aren’t realising that not all jobs are the same. If you are in a role where the client or customer needs you to be available in opening hours then of course you can’t disappear for 2 hours during the day.
If you’re in a role where you’re paid to do a job rather than set hours or you need to do a set number of hours and it doesn’t matter when those hours are done. Why shouldn’t there be flexibility?
Why does a computer programmer need to sit in an office coding from 9-5 if they work better in the an afternoon or evening?
If your job requires you to sit and concentrate and do complicated projects why shouldn’t you sit in silence at home rather than in a noisy office where you’re distracted every 2 minutes?
If your job requires you to be available to talk to people at odd hours, why shouldn’t you then take 2 hours back during the day?
My employer gets more from me as I’m more willing to take a call with Australia early in the morning or California in the evening, but in return I’ll take a couple of hours during traditional work hours in lieu.

True, but even on a fixed price you’d probably also agree a time estimate with the decorator, and not expect him to be painting at 8pm when you’re at home trying make dinner.

I think all you’ve done there is prove the point that some posters have made when they said that all jobs are different. Some can’t be done from home, some can but during set hours and some can be done whenever that person feels like it, providing it gets done.

Which is why the painter example was a daft one for that poster to jump to. Because people usually wfh in their own house rather than yours!

Those saying they can meet targets while still using work time to go to the gym etc, maybe your targets/workload aren't quite right and you could raise it with your manager.
Magnificently pass-agg; I applaud you.
Do you genuinely feel that so many people have managers who are failing to notice that their staff's workload isn't 'quite right' or that they're setting inadequate targets?

I imagine her employer is paying her for a year’s worth of output. How that breaks down to hours per day is pretty irrelevant.

Why do you think an office has no distractions?

My office has loads. It's open plan, and people are in and out and talking loudly. People walk up and start talking to you, and some of them love a chat. There are colleagues I enjoy talking to. Sometimes I end up helping people with something they can't do on their computer, or if the receptionist is photocopying I might get asked for help by a visitor.

Offices are not sterile cubes with nothing but 4 walls and a computer, we don't work at Lumon.

I would suggest that you can spend your designated lunch break (30 mins/60 mins whatever you're work contracted agreement is) doing "life admin" if that's what you choose to do, but otherwise I do think that you should be at your desk working. I would argue that if you have time in your work hours outside of break times to attend to personal tasks then you are effectively being paid full time hours to do part time work. If you were in the office and sat around not working, most employers would find more work for you to do if they are paying you to work those hours.

Slight side issue, but why is flexibility about hours allowed when it involves working around school pickup and bedtime, but a gym class in the working day is taking the piss? It's great that they're 'supportive of family life', but how about being supportive of their staff's general health and well-being?

I know. That’s what I was trying to do. I am not anti-flexibility or WFH, I am anti -shit analogies.

In which case, I concur - it was a shit analogy!

Oh God, absolutely! My field is full of people who have no clue how to manage anyone, in roles that don’t actually give them enough time or support to learn how to manage.

(By the way I have read the whole thread and it was really bad form of you not to apologise to the poster you accused of “making shit up” when you had clearly not read the OP properly).

My point stands: it is highly unlikely that everyone on here saying they do their work, their managers are happy, their company's bottom line is happy, is lying or deluded about the standard of their work or the success of the business they work for.

Funnily enough when I worked from home I thought exactly like that which is why I got a lot more work done at home and worked longer hours too logging in long after I would have eft the office and logging in before I would have arrived. I would also feel guilty leaving the house whereas in the office I would always go for a walk at lunch time. I also got interrupted more in the office when people would come round to my desk to chat, sometimes starting about work but carrying on about something else.
I worked from home before the pandemic and my organisation actually encouraged it because it meant they needed less accommodation space and when someone has a particularly complex piece of work to do they were told to work from home away from distractions.

I think it’s just part of the work life balance, I could spend 10 mins in the staff room making a cuppa and having a chat.. at home that equates to me putting a wash on. I get all my work done and still manage to clean my house on a Friday so it’s nice and fresh for the weekend. Everyone’s a winner.

It totally depends on the job.
My employer expects a huge amount of flexibility from me (evenings and weekends) therefore I get flexibility back.
As long as my work is done and I don't miss meetings etc it's not an issue.

It will be different for other jobs though.
However, some people do really fail to understand that wfh actually means I'm working!!

That’s not the fault of the worker, that’s bad management and the manager needs to take responsibility for that. Almost certainly the work was being spun out to fill the hours when both manager and worker were in the office and the manager failed to be aware of this.

As I said upthread, there are lots of jobsworth middle managers on MN and my take is that they’re realising how WFH shows up their failings and so are desperate for that to get covered up again in the culture of office work and presenteeism.

It’s not my job to point out my manager’s or my company’s inefficiencies.

I guess because if you are putting less hours in you are essentially doing a part time job and are getting paid for a full time job.
As someone who works part time and works non stop when at work but only gets a part time wage you can see why it would annoy me or other people.
I work part time so I can do all that other stuff on my own time. But I get the part time wage to go with it.

If you were in the office and sat around not working, most employers would find more work for you to do if they are paying you to work those hours.

That's quite the generalisation.

Maybe if people are doing pretty generalised roles. But lots of jobs are very specific. There's actually no guarantee that because someone happens to have an hour without much to do, there'll automatically be a suitable task available for them to fill that time, and it won't more faff than it's worth getting someone else to show them how to do it.

Really, this is just another example of people not understanding how different jobs are different.

@Yodeloo work on my side business.

Yeah, worked with a guy who did similar. He was instantly dismissed when work found out.

The difference is that nobody can insist you work or be available outside your part time hours so you have total certainty about your commitments outside working hours.

The full time worker can always be given more work if their days are genuinely not full and they can’t respond with “oh, but I can’t do that regular meeting at 4pm every Thursday because that’s when I collect my child from school/do my Zumba class” (absent a formal flexible working request).