to think some people think WFH should be a constant nose to the grindstone?

[Yodeloo]

I think some jobs are like that definitely. Heavy workload, helplines etc

Some people think all WFH should be like this and get horrified because someone hung some washing out or helped out a family member for a short time. Plenty of jobs have flexibility and it is about getting the job done not just being present in front of the computer non stop.

I get all my life admin done throughout the day around work. I do an exercise class most mornings and then start work later on the days I WFH. I will meet up with friends, work on my side business. Nobody cares at my work. All targets are met consistently.

Is it jealousy that people get so upset?

I agree with above, "standard office hours" only exist for some people.

You are a receptionist, the catering clean, and so many others? You need to be available, that's the job.

Anyone else? Depends. Even if you only work during "office hours", most people still have meetings and a schedule meaning they are not "available" at a drop of a hat.

It doesn't really matter if Brenda is unreachable at 11am because stuck in a heated client meeting, in a plane on her way back from another work place or at a yoga session. I prefer if Brenda can be trusted and is getting on with her job, and I know she will be at her desk until midnight if and when needed, she'll be more efficient if she can go to her yoga session that morning.

Professional adults will recognise when a team meeting is essential and be there, online or not, unless strict work commitment elsewhere. Makes 0 difference if they are home or in the office. (they're usually more efficient from home anyway).

There’s nothing more amusing on MN than a WFH thread asking if it’s unreasonable to do something within the home in that time. There’s SO much jealousy. Or people who think WFHers should behave like they’re in the office - the kind of people who seem to covet the American life of no work/life balance that you dread one day is promoted to managing people.

I WFH and will sometimes do a food shop or have a 2 hour nap. But at the same time there are pit falls to always being accessible. For the last 2 Fridays I’ve worked late into the evening due to other people fucking up their deadlines and because there’s no office to leave it just makes sense to do it then and there. Give and take innit.

The sooner people realise that giving employees a better work life balance, agility and flexibility = better outputs, happier staff and therefore bigger profits, the better. I love that the slave driving culture is frowned upon and not tolerate anymore

Are people on here not adults? Do we need to be careful about them being encouraged to go to exercise classes in work time?

But it does matter. Because realistically, Brenda is going to be stuck in a heated meeting or on the road between workplaces much of the time, which already does cut down her availability to be contacted, so why cut it down further by letting her go off to yoga between 9 and 5 and do her work when everyone else has logged off instead? It just compounds the problem.

As I said before, some people just seem over-invested in trying to defend this and make out it's not a big deal when it very clearly is.

And you agree that standard office hours exist for some people but not for you? So the people who should do standard hours are the ones who might inconvenience you if they don't, am I right? Oh the irony.

It’s also worth saying the WFH gives me hours back because there’s no inane chit chat. I imagine those angry about WFHers never ever have a matter with a colleague? You’re paid to work not to <insert non work thing> after all right?

Yes you probably do. But every day they don't finish your job when you expected them to be working and don't see why they shouldn't be, is a day when you are inconvenienced and delayed. Let's say you had a carpet fitter booked in and they couldn't start until the painter had finished, but the painter took the view that he needed a few mornings off at short notice to go to some yoga classes. He insists that as it doesn't affect the quality of his painting and decorating it's not for you to demand exactly when he should turn up and he doesn't have to justify his half days to anyone. He's still going to bring your job in before Christmas as promised, so what's the problem?

So you have a choice. You either lose your slot with the carpet fitter, but his next slot is after Christmas and you really wanted that room finished for Christmas plus you've already taken up the old carpet. So it's going to look shit for Christmas. Or you agree to have it fitted before the painting is finished, which means fluff everywhere for a couple of weeks while it settles, and the painter needs to come back to gloss the skirting boards. But he can't get to the bottom of the skirting boards now, so there will always be that slightly annoying gap where he had to put masking tape on your carpet edge. The skirting boards are currently red and your walls are now off white and your new carpet is beige, so it will irritate you forever that you can detect a tiny trace of red along the bit where the carpet meets the skirting board, because the carpet was in situ when the painting was done.

And you wasted a Saturday ripping up the old carpet and taking it to the tip yourself, rather than letting the carpet fitter remove it when he laid the new one SPECIFICALLY SO THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN. It might seem like a minor detail to your Yoga loving decorator, but to you, who planned things carefully so you could get a perfect job all finished before Christmas, it's a massive fucking annoyance and a waste of your time.

But some of you seem incapable of understanding that you are the annoying decorator in somebody else's scenario, because your right to swan off to yoga or take a long nap in the middle of a working day is more important than inconveniencing the people you work with, or for.

To list a few examples I have personally had of this poor excuse for a service I pay for, let me give special mention to my local city council, some of our suppliers for our business and NatWest personal banking (haha what a joke that particular personal service turned out to be.)

Actually as fate would have it, there is an article in the Times or Telegraph (can't remember which) today from the CEO of either Goldmans or Morgan Stanley (again, can't remember which) complaining about Gen Z's attitude to turning up for work in the office and thinking that hiding behind their computer at home means they can pick and choose their own hours and not be available to answer the phone if they don't want to. He's absolutely sick to the back teeth of it.

Inane chit chat can help hugely with a cohesive team spirit. It's much, much harder to achieve that, or to train people effectively in an ongoing way when they do not ever share a physical space. Everything needing to be scheduled in advance is not conducive to a great teamwork or problem solving on the spot.

I often chat when I'm working, we have the radio on and chat about what we're listening to (and other stuff) while working.
We also chat about the best way to approach a project that is tricky/not a standard job, and whinge about clients Sometimes it's a 3 way chat, sometimes with (MN favourite), diagrams!

But the point is that there’s so much upset about people doing non work things, but the same doesnt seem to apply to those working in the office. Which shows it’s just jealousy IMO

Being measured by outcomes is all very well, but as we all know, time is money and having a good outcome is as much about delivering in an acceptable timeframe as it is about delivering a quality result. If you are required to interact with other people and all of you have to wait around more than would usually be necessary because so many of you are working remotely to your own personalised schedule there will be an impact on productivity. There just will and there's no point in trying to argue otherwise.

For the last 2 Fridays I’ve worked late into the evening due to other people fucking up their deadlines and because there’s no office to leave it just makes sense to do it then and there. Give and take innit.

Maybe if they hadn't been at yoga or taking a long weekend abroad when they were supposed to be working on Friday and Monday, or had arranged a child minder instead of trying to save money by doing their own childcare in working hours, they wouldn't have fucked up their deadlines? Just a thought.

Degree of flexibility yes - but if you have time to do an exercise class, meet friends for coffee, run your own business and complete life admin during your work hours, have a conversation with your manager about taking on more or reducing your hours.

And you agree that standard office hours exist for some people but not for you? So the people who should do standard hours are the ones who might inconvenience you if they don't, am I right?

that's your interpretation, that's not what I said at all.

Standards hours, or at least "known" hours are needed for obvious reasons.

People know the office is officially opened and manned between 8 and 8. If they chose to book a meeting there at 10pm, they can't complain there's no one to greet and bring coffee to the client or to take their minutes. No one is stopping them from having a 10pm meeting though, it happens a lot with someone from another time zone.

If someone is only available between 10pm and 5am and no client is happy about that (reasonably) then we have a problem. If you want a report on your desk at 8am Friday, you won't know or care if it was done at 3pm on Thursday or 2am on Wednesday.

which already does cut down her availability to be contacted, so why cut it down further by letting her go off to yoga between 9 and 5 and do her work when everyone else has logged off instead? It just compounds the problem.

Because unless Brenda is your PA, Brenda doesn't have to be available FOR YOU. Send her an email, block her time, don't expect her to wait around in case you need an impromptu chit-chat.

Brenda is professional enough not to book her yoga session when there's an urgent last-minute meeting. That's where it comes down to.

You just want people to match your own schedule, if you have no flexibility, that's your problem, not a reason to penalise the entire office.

Why, though?

Every job is different. Some have a certain amount of work to do each day, others have specific hours.

Some people do take the piss when working from home, and they're spoiling it for others.

Why on earth would she do that?

I think there's a real failure of imagination around this discussion. Some jobs don't have fixed hours for one to "reduce". There's workload to be done and targets to be met, and that takes as long as it takes. I have WFH days where I have literally nothing to do, but then I regularly work late when there is a lot do and a deadline to meet. I wouldn't dream of giving up easy WFH days because I know I make up the time on other days, and if I don't I consider the free time well-earned because I worked my arse off in the early part of my career.

I'm working from home while I wait for an operation. It's much more full on than my NHS clinic job. I pretty much have to be glued to my laptop all day, I can't just go and hang washing out or make lunch, i need to make a packed lunch the day before.
If I'm not assessing patients online I'm answering urgent queries and sorting out booking problems. To be honest I'm looking forward to getting back in clinic for the rest.
I don't know what people are doing that they can go to the gym or see friends.
People can surprise Teams call me at any time of the day and zim expected to be right there and not in my pyjamas either. I have to look properly dressed for work.

I agree. In my job people regularly sit in the office talking about their lives or on their phone when they should be working . Go off for a fag when it’s quiet or go make a cuppa … Just coz they ain’t at home doesn’t mean they spend every minute doing what they are being paid to do .
My friend works from home and will take the dog out or pop to get some shopping but she regularly logs on to work outside office hours and even when she’s on annual leave she replies to emails and does work that she couldn’t do if she was in the office 9-5pm . She works unpaid a lot so her work are pretty lax with her knowing she more than makes up her time so they ain’t as strict with her .

Definitely jealousy. My view is that as long as I’ve done my work, I’m all caught up on mandatory training, emails answered, checked with boss/colleagues whether they need assistance then I’m free to do other tasks where i’m not needed. I can’t just make up work to do 🤷‍♀️

You do understand that not everyone has a job like you right?

I don't get any surprise Teams calls and my workflow varies so it is easy to get to the gym and see friends during quiet times.

Exactly. So many posters seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that all jobs are different.

I wonder if it's jealousy.

I don't know what people are doing that they can go to the gym or see friends.

A job that's not like yours?

Plenty of people work jobs where they never have Teams calls (or at least, not unexpected ones) and where they can easily plan their days to allow them to go to the gym, or for coffee, or to do the school run.

It's more that people resent the ones 'W' FH who take the piss and boast about it, as you are doing here. Have you not noticed how much longer we all have to wait to speak to customer service line, government departments, get passports, etc etc since WFH started? No doubt due to all the 'life admin' (ie skiving off work) being done instead of people doing their actual fucking jobs. That's why, and the boasting doesn't help, why not just keep quiet about your skiving?

but there are no "work hours" as strict as you think we all have.

Quiet day, time to meet a friend for coffee ^whether I am in the office or not!". Then a client wakes-up and FINALLY send something to review at 6pm. You are spending your evening on it.
Client happy, it's done. Manager is happy, it's done. You are very happy, you didn't waste time at your desk when you were not needed, you have seen the friend and you have peace and quiet to work in the evening.

Exercise class midday? It breaks the day, you work better.

It obviously doesn't work if you are a teacher and have a class waiting for you.
For many other professional roles, you have a much better work-life balance.

It's about time we stop with being "present" in the office and doing bugger all there, wasting everybody else's time with random chats or "questions". No Steve, I am not available for you to pop at my desk to answer a stupid question just because you were in a chatty mood.

I don't work in any of these: customer service line, government departments, get passports.

So if I go to an exercise class in work time, it doesn't negatively impact on anyone. I meet all my targets and work is done to a high standard so what is the problem?