If you’re married to a surgeon please tell me if you think I’m being unfair?

[Likao]

I am 40 and we have 1 dc age 2. I do everything for dd in terms of nursery runs, packing bags, ensuring dd has new shoes that fit, taking her to appointments etc. Any admin you can think of, I do.

i also work full time from home, so I have flexibility which is why I do nursery etc. At weekends DP will take dd out from 10ish to 4pm ish on a Saturday or Sunday so I can have a break. I don’t think this is ok or enough and I’m starting to get really pissed off that everything is left to me.

if I ask DP to do a specific task like put a wash on or pick up some food then he will. But what infuriates me is there is NEVER a sense of urgency from him to be home at a reasonable time and he would absolutely never ensure he was there to collect dd from nursery for example. I have to cut my data short often to collect her if unwell but he literally does not think he can do this because he can’t just leave patients (in his words). Obviously I know that there is a difference with his job but I am absolutely at the end of my tether tonight and very upset he’s been at work since 6am and not even asked how I’ve got on with dd and her bedtime (she’s very difficult at the moment). It’s making me very unhappy and feel very alone. It’s caused loads of arguments the last few weeks as I feel totally put upon. I don’t feel I have an equal relationship and the only answer I get back is that his job means he can’t do more. I’m sick of it all, should I expect more, is it fair?

You sound pretty deluded about the reality of most working mothers. I can’t imagine having 6 hours a week completely child and work free; I don’t know any one who has this ?? And whilst part of me would love that much time off at the weekend, I think I’d feel guilty not spending time with my child if I was at work all week too. I really don’t get the aggro from you if you’re just talking nursery runs (aren’t they a nice thing to have time with your child? And bed time should be a lovely happy time for connection too ? I would feel sad to miss those times with my kids and don’t ever resent them. Yes it can be hard but it’s also the highlight of the day.)

It appears most women end up responsible for all the mental load around children; it isn’t right but seems to be the status quo and certainly not unique to you, again, I don’t know any other family where it isn’t the mother responsible for buying clothes, shoes, packing bags etc, But it makes more sense in a dynamic where your partner has the more intense job?

Given the amount of free time you get, this sounds more to me like loneliness and a feeling of disconnect? Perhaps you could use the Saturdays to spend time together as a family?

Derailing the thread a bit here, but my DP is a corporate lawyer in the City and he still does loads of childcare outside work (and all the childcare drop offs and pickups atm as I'm unwell pregnant and can't travel much, plus my job offers less flexibility than his).

However his firm lets him work from home whenever he likes, so he's usually doing pickups, putting our toddler to bed then logging on to work more until late evening.

I appreciate though the OP's DP can't wfh, which makes her scenario quite different to an office job.

Thanks for the thumbs up so far. Unless you've been at the coal face of a surgeon even those closest haven't a clue what's involved in their day to day life. They can all arrive at my door & I will do anything to help them including taking care of the majority of childcare

My dh has a ‘big job’ too - 80 hours is the standard. I knew this when I met him, and married him that I would at times being carrying the load alone. When my dc were young it was extremely hard work at times and I had an hour at the weekend not a day. You are lucky to have this.

Can you reduce your hours op? If you are feeling resentful - understandably. We made changes in the end, as I felt burnt out. It will get much easier for you as your child grows up.

Dont have a second or third child. Whatever you do. It’s very demanding in your position, and much more manageable with one.

Honestly, I think most parents (whether fathers or mothers) would love 6 child-free, work-free hours a week. It is a huge amount of time and I don't understand why you don't see that?

I would love a day off every week that was completely for me. It’s really rare in my experience with young dc.

He's at work, feeling like some kind of God (nurses all around).
Then comes home to 'nagging?'
Be careful that you don't make yourself the undesirable option here.
You sound exhausted and understandably so.
Something needs to give, what do you want OP?
He will always prioritise his career. It makes him feel good.

And men are quite predictable.
So if you want him around more;
argue / critique less and compliment more.

Work it to suit you. Men are stupid creatures and love a good ego smooth.

If you want him, make sure home is a nice place to come back to. As PP said, get a cleaner.

I employed an au pair.

Get lots of help. He can pay for it.

Or have a think about if you want to keep him.. he won't change. They never do xx

Yep. Not married to one but I dated one once and was blown away at how arrogant and up his own arse he was. Definitely something missing in terms of understanding how to relate to people.

What is all this ‘I’d love a day off a week!’ crap from posters?? Does anyone saying that have a partner but also work and do 100% of parenting and home life? If that was me and I had 6 hours a week without children, I’d probably be sorting a cupboard, getting to the gym, cooking something for me to have healthy lunches, doing 2 hours of work and the dishes and some online shopping for the house or child, and boom the time is gone. It’s less time ‘off’ or more accurately child free than many single parents and he hasn’t had to have a single responsible thought apart from keeping his child alive while playing with them. Op, from now on how about he does the shop with your child and comes home and cooks dinner with them? Hes got that time, he doesn’t get to take zero responsibility. He can do that and take her to a class or whatever he does. Personally I’d also say to him and just so you’re aware, if you suddenly discover you need to do work Saturdays now I’ve said you need to contribute to running our life, I want a divorce, as fast as possible. And you will have to take more responsibility for your child than you ever have in your life before then, or barely see them and know nothing about them, because I won’t be doing the bloody wife work then and telling you what they shared in the school information night or how her drama performance went or how to access her report or what she likes now.

The job is demanding and all encompassing. Being a surgeon and to some extent a medic is a lifestyle choice and in the majority of countries your are remunerated according and can outsource to give you free time. Unfortunately, in the uk this is not the case. Have you thought about moving abroad, do you want / need to work ?

?

So unnecessary, she’s clearly struggling and you’re just sticking the boot in. I hope you got whatever is missing out of that.

I realise this isn’t what you wanted to hear but I’ve just had three hours to myself since Christmas. My DH works night shifts 6 days a week and a lot of the time a seventh so we only see him in the afternoon. He’s constantly shattered and does one of the DC drop offs. Unfortunately, the setup can’t be changed and it’s either accept it or leave for doing it all alone.

Sorry that things are so tough.

There is an interesting parallel thread on a medical forum triggered by this - https://www.msn.com/en-au/health/other/australian-hospital-manager-calls-junior-doctors-a-workforce-of-clinical-marshmellows-in-email-stuff-up/ar-AA1y9DRg?cvid=e150c6689e524a9190a170e1d0e86725&ei=36

The conclusions I draw from that thread are that, as doctors, our attitudes towards professionalism and the need to get away from clinical work are, in general, very skewed. This will be because staying to make sure things are done and not dumping on the very skeleton out of hours on call team has been inculcated into us from day dot. However, attitudes towards the job being everything are changing.

I am a medical consultant. DP is non-medical and has a hybrid pattern of office/WFH. The day-to-day mental load still falls to me, and I am the one who ‘sees’ that laundry needs to be done, dishwasher needs to be loaded and emptied, child-related admin, supervising homework, household bills, car service and MOT, presents for both sides of the family, etc etc are sorted.

However, school run is down to DP as I can’t get there. If there is sickness, DP has to do it as it is easier (and we agree more reasonable) for him to rearrange his working day/work from home than it is for me to cancel lists of patients, who will have been waiting some time to see me, and will effectively go to the back of the queue again if I cancel them. If something comes up that needs my specific expertise urgently, I have to stay, because who is going to do it if I don’t? Luckily, in my speciality, this is not a frequent occurrence, but there are too few of us in most hospitals to make an out of hours on-call rota of my speciality viable. Other specialities have much more acute work and therefore have more antisocial hours built in and/or more risk of unexpectedly having to stay late.

However, aside from this, I would say that we are both very hands-on in terms of facilitating extra-curricular activities and spending time with our child. We split school holidays/inset days between each of us taking annual leave solo or holiday clubs. However, this means that I get 1 hour to myself per week (which my DP fiercely protects and makes me go and take) and he gets 6 hours. We have very little time together as a family.

His stage of career its important. It is incredibly tough as a resident doctor and really the only autonomy they have over their working hours now is choosing whether to work in the NHS, or whether they leave clinical medicine or pursue it in another country. Savvy people might look at work-life balance and choose future speciality based on this. They also have precious little choice where they work, and even if they are in a stage of training where they have been able to choose their region, they have to rotate to different hospitals, which can be over an hour from their base. I have had trainees (both male and female) have to relocate to the area they are working, away from their young family for a year at a time, and have to maintain the household and pay rent on a salary that is not princely.

As a consultant, you have more autonomy, but a lot less than people might think. You have a stable work base and can feel more secure to request to work LTFT (but be aware that trusts are also entitled to refuse flexible working requests) and you have a little more ability to through money at the problem of cleaning/wraparound care. But the flip side is that you are now at a stage that you have expertise that others don’t. Unfortunately, for a surgeon, there are procedures that only ‘the boss’ can do.

So in summary
1)there is a certain amount that unfortunately just goes with the territory regarding time at work and inability to drop tools.
2)However, that is no excuse for not contributing to the household maintenance (he will have many colleagues who are part of 2 doctor families).
3)If he is currently a resident doctor, things may improve in some ways when he gets more senior…but the demands on him will change.
4) have a chat with him about whether it is an option for either or both of you to go LTFT. It is definitely more common in medical careers now and not seen as unacceptable.

I’d also add that there are some interesting comments about surgeons on this thread!

They are not god-like creatures that deserve fawning devotion. They are people. People who do very important, sometimes life-saving work with unavoidably long hours. But so are non-surgical doctors, nurses, paramedics etc etc. The job does not give them special dispensation in life in general.

They are not treated that way whilst they are at work either. The days of the nurse handmaiden deferring to the all powerful consultant are long gone (if they ever really existed). I think it is unfair to generalise surgeons as arrogant. In my experience of now hundreds of surgical colleagues, most are just normal people whose behaviour is centred around wanting to do a good job and get the best outcomes for their patient rather than their own ego. Yes, of course there are some complete tools (and you might say there is a certain assortment of personality types in certain branches of surgery. I couldn’t possibly comment). However, I recognise this style of alpha overconfident loud behaviour in a number of friends and acquaintances outside medicine, and I would say much more so in those who went to work in big highly-paid City jobs than in my medical colleagues.

Does he also get 6 hrs a week to himself?

Doctor married to doctor here. If he was female he wouldn’t be afforded the same luxury of never having to worry about childcare. It’s the biggest reason men go higher and have better careers, whilst women are seen as unreliable. It makes if even easier for your partner to not contribute as you are non medic; at least when my husband says he “can’t” come home on time I have some insight as to whether this is likely to be the case.
It’s shit, but it’s important that your career matters too.

@Likao

Not a surgeon, but he works 6am til 9pm every day. I get no help. I’ve reduced my hours to part time.

I used to get really pissed off, less so now. Yesterday DP worked from home, and the response when I asked him to take DS to a late afternoon activity was that he was really put out. I just thought, fuck off - spend some time with your child.

This isn’t great, but unfortunately I think one parent needs to back down significantly on their career and do the majority of childcare, until DC is more independent. Either that or you each back down less significantly - but equally. I think you sit with him, and have this discussion,

Must be infuriating to be married to someone pulling in 6 figures who is literally saving people's lives day in, day out and it's still not enough.

No wonder he's checked out.

Shouldn’t she set him free if thats all that matters to him? Then he can eat take away every night, live in a shit hole or actually do some cleaning, which he had better do because if he actually does nothing like currently you wouldn’t let your child stay with him, for hygiene reasons.

What an obtuse comment. As if a woman‘s perspective wouldn’t be an valuable add on to this question. Especially since the burden of caretaking usually lies on mothers.

Pretty sure he can afford a cleaner, or get one of the nurses that will inevitably form an orderly queue to do it for him.

Whats with the surgeon worshipping on this thread? It’s a bit odd.

You don't like his lack of initiative

You know what they say?
Whats the difference between God and a surgeon?
Even God doesn’t think he’s a surgeon.
And
Whats the difference between God and a surgeon?
Even God wonders if he’s made the occasional mistake.