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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Hate speech but not hate

153 replies

Tropics4 · 04/02/2025 21:22

Why is everything regarded as 'hate speech'. If I do not agree with your beliefs I don't hate you, I just don't agree. For example I believe in biological sex, not 'assigned gender or gender fluid or neither is gay or lesbian my thing but I don't hate anyone for their stance on it, neither would I be rude or harmful to them or wish to incite any harm to them, but why must my not having the same view be regarded as hate? I think the term hate speech is in itself inflammatory and hateful to both parties, agree or not?

OP posts:
ThDanielDay · 05/02/2025 19:41

ThDanielDay · 05/02/2025 19:21

Well you've been asked to clarify on it multiple times and have elected not to.

You're using obscure and confusing language, whether intentionally or not, and for many people the most logical interpretation is that you judge gay people I think that their sexuality is a choice.

Please could you clarify so I and many others don't continue to ascribe positions to you unfairly.

What about gay people isn't for you?

What opinions about homosexuality do you have that are not shared by homosexual people?
What are your different values?

*And think that

Itssofunny · 05/02/2025 19:46

rexrabbit · 05/02/2025 19:39

Being gay or lesbian isn’t a matter of opinion or a position you can argue for or against

There are lots of positions you can hold related to gay or lesbian people though that are a matter of opinion. Same-sex marriage and adoption spring to mind. Some people are for, others against.

Also, I think most gay people would have an opinion about being friends with a homophobic person. Similarly, a homophobic person would have an opinion on being friends with someone who is gay.

Opinions all round!

TemporaryPosition · 05/02/2025 19:47

CraftyOP · 05/02/2025 17:53

Because it's pretty hateful to trans people to continuously diminish their lived experience. I'm sure plenty would scoff at that sentence but I don't really care, why should people log on to mn and see thread after thread of trans bashing it's awful. If you want to have a genuine debate about gender identification there's a time, place and way of doing it.

It's hateful to be so misogynistic that you refuse to hear women discuss their objections to be reduced to a figment of a male imagination. That's hate. But it's something I just have to suck up.

@Tropics4

Things are regarded as hate speech because the speaker must be silenced. Declaring hate speech is intended to minimise the chances of others hearing arguments that they know are very compelling. And more persuasive than they're able to defend.

rexrabbit · 05/02/2025 19:51

well yes, lots of opinions about what people might do, but BEING gay isn't a matter of opinion so you can't really be persuaded out of it and into another opinion

Ddakji · 05/02/2025 19:57

CraftyOP · 05/02/2025 17:53

Because it's pretty hateful to trans people to continuously diminish their lived experience. I'm sure plenty would scoff at that sentence but I don't really care, why should people log on to mn and see thread after thread of trans bashing it's awful. If you want to have a genuine debate about gender identification there's a time, place and way of doing it.

But any “genuine debate” is immediately shot down as hate, bigotry, “our existence isn’t up for debate”, trans rights are human rights, etc etc etc.

How do you see such a genuine debate happening?

RunSlowTalkFast · 05/02/2025 20:07

@Tropics4

Do you think being gay is a choice?

Do you think gay people should be able to get married?

Tropics4 · 05/02/2025 21:33

RunSlowTalkFast · 05/02/2025 20:07

@Tropics4

Do you think being gay is a choice?

Do you think gay people should be able to get married?

The point of my post was to show how easily one is accused of hate speech when it's often the furthest thing from one's mind and it's inflammatory and yes used to silence opinions that are not political fashionable. However each person must decide for themselves their paths, choices, feelings and where it will lead them or feel led by them. I don't consider myself a judge of humankind thankgoodness. As I have some responses just prove the point that the term 'hate speech' is over used and often abused.
I don't think there is much point in saying anymore on the subject really.

OP posts:
ThDanielDay · 05/02/2025 21:41

People calling you homophobic isn't the same as people saying you're guilty of hate speech.

People can say all sorts of daft bigoted things and calling them daft bigots isn't silencing them or censoring them or saying they should be arrested for hate speech

RunSlowTalkFast · 05/02/2025 22:04

Tropics4 · 05/02/2025 21:33

The point of my post was to show how easily one is accused of hate speech when it's often the furthest thing from one's mind and it's inflammatory and yes used to silence opinions that are not political fashionable. However each person must decide for themselves their paths, choices, feelings and where it will lead them or feel led by them. I don't consider myself a judge of humankind thankgoodness. As I have some responses just prove the point that the term 'hate speech' is over used and often abused.
I don't think there is much point in saying anymore on the subject really.

Well if you're going to avoid answering questions then yes, continuing the thread is pointless but refusing to answer speaks volumes.

RunSlowTalkFast · 05/02/2025 22:09

I asked if you think being gay is a choice and in your rambling response you said 'each person must decide for themselves their paths, choices...'

So I'm going to assume you do think it's a choice but if it's not and you're not homophobic I'm sure you'll be eager to return to clear that up.

scorpiogirly · 05/02/2025 22:23

As Ricky Gervais said, you have the right to be offended and I have the right not to care.

It's all getting ridiculously out of hand.

Tropics4 · 05/02/2025 23:12

I think I'm also past caring to be honest..nothing is plainer than saying I don't hate anyone and that different views don't mean hate.
Some people decide things are choices others decide otherwise - this is not the point of the post. It was - again, how a differing opinion can be deemed hate when it clearly is not. I so do hate the term 'phobic' though when wrongly applied, I'm definitely an arachnophobe, I fear spiders, I have no wish to like them at all. People no, I'm not phobic of them unless they are mad murderers of course.
So whether I think sexuality is absolutely innate or not I won't be drawn into because I don't know all the answers, is there real intersex? I don't know? What age should a person be able to consent to sex? I don't know, what is the route of trans, I don't know! Is it OK to call a person a terf? Can transwomen call lesbians transphobes?
I'm sure proper discussion around all walks of life could happen and people agree to disagree at times without the flipping hate speech card waved high and often

Finally again, hate speech is an overused term yes to often silence voices or to suit an agenda and is often applied hatefully to innocent people.
And I'm tired, I need my sleep so.goodnight all. Happy NOT hateful slumbers to all.

OP posts:
Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 06/02/2025 04:18

Maybe it would be best if you gave some examples of the hate speech you’ve been accused of?

You do seem quite homophobic, but that’s not hate speech.

ThDanielDay · 06/02/2025 04:32

"..nothing is plainer than saying I don't hate anyone and that different views don't mean hate."

I mean answering the very straight forward questions would be plainer. But you go be the victim of an issue you have created and could alleviate very easily if you wanted to.

RunSlowTalkFast · 06/02/2025 06:40

ThDanielDay · 06/02/2025 04:32

"..nothing is plainer than saying I don't hate anyone and that different views don't mean hate."

I mean answering the very straight forward questions would be plainer. But you go be the victim of an issue you have created and could alleviate very easily if you wanted to.

Exactly. Plainer would be a one word answer yes or no.

If you won't/can't answer whether being gay is a choice what about whether gay people should be able to get married?

SleepToad · 06/02/2025 08:15

Tropics4 · 05/02/2025 11:20

But I didn't call anyone a freak did I?
Please just read my post again. I think by your response you show my point perfectly, I'm saying I have a different view and suddenly you jump to ' calling them a freak' your words not mine.
Therefore it perfectly proves what I'm saying, I hold a different view and I'm the problem? I don't insist anyone else holds my view or argue that they can't hold theirs, I stay quiet to avoid harm or offence I'm simply saying that the term hate speech is many times unnecessarily inflammatory. That's it.

But you miss read me😂I gave the word freak as an example same with sending people "home". Between us we also illustrated the problem of not listening!😂

LookingAtMyBhunas · 06/02/2025 08:56

I'm a police officer and work in Hate Crime, the only one of two in my force, so I feel like I can answer a few questions. Maybe I should do an AMA? 😂

I'm currently doing a huge piece of work with the Centre for Hate studies on a new training package for fellow officers because of the confusion of when and what to record.

So basically, no,.what you've said in your OP would not be a Hate Crime or a Non Crime Hate incident (NCHI).

An opinion can be as unpalatable or disagreeable as it wants, it doesn't necessarily mean a NCHI has occurred, much less a Hate crime/racially aggravated public order offence.

Definition of Hate Crime needs to be motivated by Bias, and the foundation crime (ie - assault) has to be made out first. It is for the police/prosecution to prove the basic offence (assault) was motivated or demonstrated hostility between one of the protected characteristics (please note these do not include all of those in the equality and diversity legislation, maternity/adoption etc for example).

NCHI are very different. Essentially a police force got sued successfully by an ex police officer after he tweeted what he stayed were gender critical views on Twitter and these were reported as a NCHI. His name and details were recorded on police systems as the 'suspect' and these would be disclosed as part of an enhanced DBS. He took the force to court and won the case, with the new term ' A chilling effect ' being coined by the CPS. This essentially means forces now have to have a very good reason to record the 'suspects' details when a NCHI occurs. Off the top of my head these are if there is 'a high likelihood of violence' OR ' A high probability of an offence being committed".

Here's the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/21/ex-police-officer-wins-appeal-over-forces-guidance-on-hate-incidents

So essentially since then things have changed a lot, but of course this takes time.

A good example I use is an officer (who is one of the best and most victim led I know), recorded a S5 rac aggravated public order offence because whilst in custody for drink driving, a detainee said words to the effect of 'You think I'd drive drunk with someone else in my car? Never, it was just me. I'm not Romanian you know. I'm not Polish" and was arrested.

I reviewed it and there was no crime or Hate incident. What he said, whilst almost certainly based in racism, is nothing worse frankly than what some newspapers print. Moreover, someone needs to be caused Harassment/alarm or distress on this specific offence, and no where had the officer detailed that they were (having been the only other person to have heard it). So if the officer hadn't been effected by it, what harm had actually been done? This is how my contact in the CPS explained it anyway as I was new to the role and so confused!

However, another woman under arrest called the same officer (who is black) the N word multiple times. Very different and clearly an offence. There is no stand alone offence of Hate Crime, it is a bolt on onto the foundation offence which increases the sentence the suspect can get. So with this woman for example, the basic offence was a public order, which she probably would have got an out of court disposal for, but because it was proved to be Hate related (motivated by hostility - in this case the officers race), she ended up receiving a two month long custodial instead.

Neighbour disputes are another - A neighbour could strongly believe their neighbour is moving their wheelie bins because they're gay - without corroborating evidence, it doesn't make it a Hate Crime. It may be recorded as a NCHI (Without recording the other Neighbours details). Hate crime has to be PROVEN to be motivated by hostility, NCHI's only need to be PERCEIVED as such by the reporting person.

Now if of course the neighbour was moving their bin further away so the victim (now victim, not just reporting person) had to walk past their window in order for them to call out homophobic slurs out their window at them, then you've got yourself a Hate related offence.

Essentially I think it's important to take each case on its own merit. Especially with gender criticism, so long as you're not being insulting/intending to cause H/A/D, then everyone should be free to express their views. It's when these views cross that ever blurry line that we need to look closer at it as a whole.

Goodness that was long! I hope some of it makes sense!

Ex-police officer wins appeal over force’s guidance on hate incidents

Judge rules Humberside’s actions were ‘disproportionate interference’ with right to freedom of expression

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/21/ex-police-officer-wins-appeal-over-forces-guidance-on-hate-incidents

myplace · 06/02/2025 09:37

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 06/02/2025 04:18

Maybe it would be best if you gave some examples of the hate speech you’ve been accused of?

You do seem quite homophobic, but that’s not hate speech.

You think she fears homosexuality, or homosexuals?

NerrSnerr · 06/02/2025 09:40

@myplace the oxford dictionary defines homophobic as 'having or showing a dislike of or prejudicee_ against gay people'.

Hope that helps.

myplace · 06/02/2025 09:42

But she doesn’t. She doesn’t exclude gay people from her friendship circles or discriminate against gay people.

HermioneWeasley · 06/02/2025 09:50

Freedom of speech is precious and so any attempts to curb it need to be limited and proportionate. IMO something is only “hate speech” if it is actively inciting violence against a group. I would include the marches through London calling for the eradication of Israel and “infitada now” as hate speech as they express violent intent.

saying you don’t agree with gay marriage, or there are too many immigrants or whatever is not hate speech. You should be free to share your views and for others to decide whether they want to engage with you/ be friends with you on the basis of your lawful opinion.

LimeHiker · 06/02/2025 10:10

myplace · 06/02/2025 09:42

But she doesn’t. She doesn’t exclude gay people from her friendship circles or discriminate against gay people.

It's hard to know what OP actually thinks from her garbled posts and refusal to clarify.

JHound · 08/02/2025 15:24

Tropics4 · 05/02/2025 23:12

I think I'm also past caring to be honest..nothing is plainer than saying I don't hate anyone and that different views don't mean hate.
Some people decide things are choices others decide otherwise - this is not the point of the post. It was - again, how a differing opinion can be deemed hate when it clearly is not. I so do hate the term 'phobic' though when wrongly applied, I'm definitely an arachnophobe, I fear spiders, I have no wish to like them at all. People no, I'm not phobic of them unless they are mad murderers of course.
So whether I think sexuality is absolutely innate or not I won't be drawn into because I don't know all the answers, is there real intersex? I don't know? What age should a person be able to consent to sex? I don't know, what is the route of trans, I don't know! Is it OK to call a person a terf? Can transwomen call lesbians transphobes?
I'm sure proper discussion around all walks of life could happen and people agree to disagree at times without the flipping hate speech card waved high and often

Finally again, hate speech is an overused term yes to often silence voices or to suit an agenda and is often applied hatefully to innocent people.
And I'm tired, I need my sleep so.goodnight all. Happy NOT hateful slumbers to all.

Do you think being gay is a choice?

JHound · 08/02/2025 15:25

HermioneWeasley · 06/02/2025 09:50

Freedom of speech is precious and so any attempts to curb it need to be limited and proportionate. IMO something is only “hate speech” if it is actively inciting violence against a group. I would include the marches through London calling for the eradication of Israel and “infitada now” as hate speech as they express violent intent.

saying you don’t agree with gay marriage, or there are too many immigrants or whatever is not hate speech. You should be free to share your views and for others to decide whether they want to engage with you/ be friends with you on the basis of your lawful opinion.

What about people calling for attacks on hotels housings asylum seekers?

Where would they fall?

JHound · 08/02/2025 15:26

myplace · 06/02/2025 09:42

But she doesn’t. She doesn’t exclude gay people from her friendship circles or discriminate against gay people.

“I’m not racist…I have black friends….”

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