A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

My point is that if you are going by their chromosomes, a woman can never use the men's room. Hence she will be required to change with you, and she will look just like a man.

Someone who presents as a man will be forced to use the ladies just because of XX.
This is my concern. I don't want a FTM man being in women's changing rooms.
Until society matures and finds a way to accommodate trans folks, we are all stuck.

This is why I say that ONLY those who have committed fully by having surgery should be allowed in that opposite sex changing room.
Men who have not had that final surgery should NOT be in ladies changing rooms/toilets, while women who HAVE had it should NOT be allowed back in.

Agree. If you have a cock and balls you are not any type of woman, , and have no right being in female only single sex spaces.

And who's going to check what's inside their underwear? Or do they get certificates that they can wave at the women on their way in?

Agree! It's wild. He's been on testosterone shots for 10 years. He's a short nuggety bloke and the personality change is even wilder.

As a woman he had a website that espoused respect and privacy for all.

As a man he makes comments about other men that make my skin crawl. I'm not convinced he would respect a No coming form another man.

Agree. It is not always easy to identify. An Adam's apple or lack of, doesn't mean anything.
I don't want someone on the door wanting me to drop my knickers to check and see if I have appropriate female genitals. That is potentially what we are talking about. They will either need a 3rd change room or change cubicles for all.

From those female people who have posted here on MN and social media, many of them know very well that the decision they made to take testosterone has led to them having enough body cues to distress other female people who will be confused by their appearance. Those that come to MN tell us that take a lot of care to plan their trips out in public.

They seek alternate arrangements and acknowledge the situation their decision has created.

If male people (over about 8 years old) never once entered female single sex spaces, then there might not be an issue for those female people to use the spaces. Because then every female using that space would have the confidence that that was a female using the space. Although, in reality, it is likely even then that some victims of male abuse would be distressed. But that is not the case so instead, the situation is more complex.

Theoretically it is not as simple as just use the facilities for your sex. Because it is not symmetrical.

All male people above the age of about 8 years old should by law and policy be excluded from female single sex spaces. That is without a doubt what needs to happen.

As to then what is a solution for those female people? There should be no laws or policy that excludes them. That would be unmanageable and it would likely be illegitimate discrimination. Because many of those female people still will be identifiably female to many other female people. And it would also be damaging to detransitioners to legally or by policy exclude them.

Hence, people don’t talk about excluding them by law or policy. However, being female people, it seems that enough of them understand this and have set up informal networks of support to help find solutions. Because they don’t want to distress other female people with their presence and they fully understand why this is distressing.

They also have said how upsetting it is to be used as a ‘gotcha’ by people who seek to support mape
people accessing single sex spaces the person as some activists do.

So, that is where it stands.

Laws and policies should exclude all male people not a child accompanied by their mother / guardian / carer. But I don’t see how they can ever legally exclude female people so therefore no one suggests this.

Because the safeguarding premise for those laws and policies are based on sex segregation for legitimate purposes. All male people excluded. Surgical status simply doesn’t matter when it is based on sex.

Because there is no evidence at all that male people at any stage of transition have a lower risk of committing sex offences than all other male people in the UK.

So height tells us then?

I can't see people's skeletons in real life.
What am I supposed to be seeing in the block diagram?
It's true in real life that I can sometimes clock someone I suspect might be trans but can't ever be sure because it could be normal variation.

Yes he is being the problem here. She tried to accommodate them both. But has he even had the surgery yet?

There is no evidence that a male person at any stage of transition has the same or lower risk of committing sex crime than a female person.

A male without a penis and testes can still commit sex crimes and abuse female people

A male without a penis and testes will still have male body cues that are likely to cause female people to be distressed by their presence.

What makes a male person who has elected to have their penis and testes removed as part of extreme body modifications different from a male person who has had to have their penis and testes removed due to injury or disease? Why should one group of male people be treated any differently to another group of male people?

Did you miss the posts where mixing males into a changing spaces results in sex offences against women?

So 50% of the population are extra risk?

You are ok with some men in the womens changing room based on them being able to pass your genital inspection.
How is your 'one rule for me a different one for thee' going to work?

A whole combination of factors together which your subconscious is primed to recognise.

Well I can't tell 'what sex you really are' from looking at someone, any more than I can see the hidden image in a stereogram.
And I don't want MTF women in my single sex places. So no it's not enough for someone to say they are female, they need to take specific steps to make it happen.

I was reading your posts with interest as you are presenting clear arguments.
However this has me stumped: If a society can pass a law which allows the State to strip search an arrested person for shoplifting or being drunk in public why should a different standard apply for breaking the law around single sex spaces?
So you ARE suggesting guards with the right to inspect anyone entering changing spaces?

We do????

There is no way to change material reality. There is no way for any male person to 'take specific steps to make it happen'. It is actually cruel to expect a person to do this to get some warped reward of special access to female single sex spaces.

Just like it has become very clear that the reduction in testosterone makes very little difference to the male physical advantage that they have. It is also very clear that some male people will never 'pass' in going unnoticed as a female person.

Who then is going to be the arbitrator of which male people have the privilege of passing as a female person so that their presence doesn't distress female people? Is it only going to be the male people who have not just had their penis and testes removed but had their faces peeled back for extreme facial surgery? Including having their adams apple shaved and risking them loosing their voice?

What about if they can never practically pass, except for someone who has stated that they personally cannot tell? Do those male people never get that access?

How about no male person above the age of needing to accompany their mother, guardian or carer, is excluded (unless they are working there and a sign is out so female people can make that choice)?

And that instead, a intensive campaign is launched to make male single sex spaces safer and more inclusive. And in the meantime, and in addition, third spaces can be available. OR just like the female people with transgender identities, those male people who have made the decision to change their bodies find alternative solutions that don't involve using female single sex spaces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_isomerism
And the whole idea of sex determined by size of gametes produced is also a bastardisation.

I see the people who can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman are back to tell us that we’re the daft ones 🤪

There are no 'specific steps' that a male person can take to make themselves female though. That is not possible.

In an earlier post you asked whether Dr Upton had 'had the surgery yet' which makes me think maybe you're not aware that the vast vast majority of transwomen have no surgery and never intend to get surgery. There isn't a 'yet'.

And for the personal health of the individual transwoman that's a good thing, as the genital surgeries on offer are painful, difficult to care for and have extremely high rates of complications including loss of sexual function and loss of continence. The idea that humans can change sex in terms of their genital area looking or functioning like that of an opposite sex person is a lie. It cannot be done.

So having genital surgery can never be a ticket for males to use women's single sex spaces , because hardly any attempt it; it doesn't work and causes lifelong medical issues; no one else in the single sex space will know whether a person has had it anyway; removing male sexual organs doesn't make males less of a danger to women (Sarah Jane Baker being an obvious example of that); and men who lose their genitals in a war zone, or to cancer, aren't turned into women by that so even having that as the criteria makes no sense.

ummm.... you obviously didn't really read and consider my post.

Just because a group took some words and retrofitted them to suit their purpose doesn't mean that they are words that fit accurately in the use of human sex categories.

And I think you will find that sex most definitely is based on categorisation being done after testing, to determine what gametes that human body has been formed around producing. It is includes a number of indicators such as chromosomes, but chromosomes are just one of those indicators. And categorisation is also not dependant on whether that body has or will produce that gamete.

Maybe, instead of just plopping down two lines and an irrelevant wikipedia entry, you could actually engage with the post.

Sure but again, how to enforce it? Are we going to have guards on all female-only spaces asking to see inside our knickers?

Or are we all going to have to submit to chromosomal tests before admittance?

Or another section on our driver's license perhaps with chromosomal test results? (I'd be happy with that).

Well I can't easily tell. I don't want men or at least functional men in women-only spaces.
Beth Upton is a man. agree
Posters can argue all they like about not noticing or understanding the difference between men and women but that's just bullshit to cover for predatory men. disagree

It is actually cruel to expect a person to do this to get some warped reward of special access to female single sex spaces.
Except the genuine ones aren't doing it for that reason.

And that instead, a intensive campaign is launched to make male single sex spaces safer and more inclusive. agree

And in the meantime, and in addition, third spaces can be available. agree

OR just like the female people with transgender identities, those male people who have made the decision to change their bodies find alternative solutions that don't involve using female single sex spaces. agree