The parenting crisis

[digimumworld]

I’m listening to the radio, the discussion is on knife crime. A caller calls in and says that we are collectively failing our children - she’s a school governor and parent and said that teachers are scared of children and that we need to stop blaming teachers - we should ask ourselves what’s going on at home for many children and that there is a huge parenting crisis at the moment.

I actually agreed. It seems more common now for there to be very little consequence for “bad behaviour” from parents. I know a few parents that are scared of their children - or at least scared of hurting their children’s feelings; also (this is the reality for me too as a parent) it’s so so hard to monitor what they are exposed to on social media - how do we know if the content they are seeing is overriding the values we are setting?

I am a parent - I truly believe that the modern parent has so much more to consider (incase relevant).

AIBU for thinking maybe there is a parenting crisis?

Lots of issues.

There's no 'shame' in society these days about anything really, and whilst when taken to extremes this is clearly wrong, we have far fewer self-regulating boundaries around behaviour in society generally.

There's very little push for self- sufficiency. In previous generations, for most people, if you didn't make it on one piece through school, and then make damn sure you got a job of some sort, you couldn't survive.

We have a much higher proportion of people with additional needs around us in society. People who would have died young in previous generations, or been locked away at home or in institutions. We collectively undertake to look after these people more pro-actively than ever before.

We have decided as a society that for monetary and ethical reasons we prefer to 'avoid' institutions wherever possible. We generally want children to be educated in a mainstream setting. However we generally don't want to invest in some of the specialist education that these children need.

Parents are simply not accountable for their own parenting throughout their child's lives - we're extremely reluctant as a society to say to anyone, 'you need to shape up in the parenting department'. If you're a woman and you want to push a man away from you as the other parent, you can (this happens). If you're a man and you want to f off and leave your kids, you can (this obviously happens). If you want to live in a shit-tip of a house with your kids there, you can. If you want to feed your kids on a diet of doritos and push-pops you can. If you want to have another kid when you really can't financially or emotionally handle it, you can. If your teenager wants to deal drugs or carry a knife, don't worry, that won't have any consequences for you whatsoever as a parent.

The extreme level of individualism in society can be quite shocking. If your kid thinks he or she is a cat (or the opposite sex), that's apparently OK, and should be supported. If you want to tattoo your eye-balls and still be considered for a customer-facing role, you should be able to. If you can't be arsed getting out of bed, despite the fact that you can wash, dress and feed yourself, comment on online forums and game all night, we'll sign you off from doing any work, for years at a time, if it's a bit distressing and beneath you to do a part-time, low-paid, low responsibility job.

Somewhere, we have lost balance. We've lost pride in doing ordinary things well, and having modest lives, well-lived. We applaud 'celebrity' and 'individuality' at a great cost to what most people can realistically achieve.

I don't know what the answer is. But I know that there's no harm in bringing your kids up to understand delayed gratification and modelling a bit of this yourself; to putting our phones down and speaking to each other, to eating well, getting exercise and getting fresh air; to reflect together on times past and hopes for the future. But these are complex/intangible things that not all people can, or want to do in many cases.

I work in a secondary school and I’ve experienced far worse behaviour from parents than kids. In fact, I’d say it’s the norm that parents defend bad behaviour when they’re informed of it and that didn’t used to be the case years ago. I have been sworn at by parents but never by a kid! 😂

Schools just can’t win. They’ll have rules to help create a calm and positive environment but parents will kick off that their child doesn’t have to follow them because their kid doesn’t like doing homework/wants to sit where they like in class/not wear the uniform. Parents don’t want a disruptive environment for their child but are okay with their child being a disruptor. 🤷‍♀️

Totally agree with this, in fact I thought about starting a post on this very subject. Language matters and influences how we interpret and process emotions and events. See also

Devastated
Hysterical
Utterly inconsolable
Totally beside herself

when applied to real but "every day" upsets.

I would NEVER let my child suffer
What do you mean by 'suffer'. Because a certain level of suffering is a normal part of life and whether you like it or not, your child will at some point experience some level of hurting. Disappointment, being let down, upset, broken hearted, needing surgery...

Of course every parent should do everything to protect their children from debilitating suffering, but it's better to look at teaching our kids to understand, cope and learn from lower level suffering so that they are more confident and prepared when they face it.

It's horrible to see our children hurt and I think that it's one of the main reasons why parents can't face disciplining their kids because they can't cope with seeing them upset. Ultimately though, building resilience and confidence are one of the most thankful skills we can instill in them and the best way to protect them against the challenges they will face that we can't take away for them.

@vivainsomnia and that's the problem isn't it. People like you & @Cattery who don't believe the credibility of the diagnostic process and therefore don't believe the diagnosis. There is a complete lack of empathy for SEN kids and alot of people are completely ignorant and don't have any idea what Autism and ADHD actually is or how it presents in children.

My son has high functioning ASD so he'd be considered "mild". When he's outside having a meltdown because "it's too busy/too noisy/too smelly/too windy/too dirty" he will often shout, cry, run off which usually results in me chasing after him, and picking him up to try to calm him down or take him home, and more often than not he starts hitting me and pulling my hair. From outsiders perspective it looks like he is really naughty. This is not down to "poor parenting". This is what ASD can look like. What works for NT kids does not work for my kid with ASD - we have tried everything and work with a psychologist on a regular basis to find other ways of parenting.

Yesterday is a prime example. I had to travel with DS on the train (a 1 hour journey). We get on and there aren't any "2 seats together" available. We walk up and down (baggage in tow) the whole train and find 2 seats facing the toilet. DS won't sit on the seats because they're "too dirty" and to be honest they are. The whole train is filthy. But an NT kid would not bat an eye lid. So off we go back up the train, with a crying DS and stand next to the door. He settles down and sits on my suitcase. Ticket inspector comes past and I ask her if there are any 2 seats together (incase I've missed them) and she says yes and points to a bank of 3 seats with 1 person in and I explain that my son won't there because he has Autism and isn't comfortable sitting with strangers. She then rolls her eyes and walks off. And that's what I feel like I'm battling with every day. I'd also like to add are we blaming parenting for all of the ignorant adults who sat on that train and not once offered to move or thought rather than travelling alone and taking up 2 seats or 3 seats, I could move and sit next to some one. Because there is definitely a lack of courtesy and decency in adults. If I had seen someone struggling with a small child on a train I would have offered them my seat.

Whilst you might observe a child "behaving badly" and "blaming it on SEN", you are not seeing the whole picture. My son has lots of other issues because of his autism - sleep, eating, toileting, these are not things that can simply be "parented" away. He's about to be prescribed melatonin to help him fall asleep because it currently takes 2/3 hours because he's wired. Because he's tired the next day his behaviour is worse. This not something I can parent away. I wish it was that simple because I would prefer that option. And no he doesn't watch TV. We have a bedtime routine. We do everything that our friends with NT kids do.

This could well be how my brain works, I'm very literal!

If someone says traumatised to me I think they mean what they say.

To be honest I think that it is a good starting point to believe a poster rather than assume she's being dramatic, clearly when she's come on Mumsnet for parenting advice.

Obviously there are some shit parents but I would put money on them not being the ones posting on mumnet.

No I disagree. Their parents will call the school and tear them a new one and blame the teachers and school…..

My 14 year old is currently going through a major phase of thinking rules don’t apply to him. His school grades are outstanding and he behaves brilliantly in class. Out of class we’ve had incidences of him chewing, rolling eyes at the teacher and messing about in assembly. Nothing massive but totally and utterly disrespectful

what have I done. I’ve laid down the law. He loses 1/4, of his allowance for each detention, he’s currently on zero money for the last 2 weeks. He can’t go out with friends as he hasn’t got any money to even get a bus. He’s in his final warning before I don’t take him away with my on a city break with his siblings in half term. He can go and stay with his grandparents

he knows I’m serious, I won’t have it and he knows it. Reprimands have gone down to 1 a week and behaviour is better.

He absolutely knows the disrespect is unacceptable but he’s seeing it all around him at school in a way his siblings at the same school didn’t have and he thinks it’s normal. I don’t and he knows he can’t do it

By the way this is a very high performing middle class school. There’s no violent behaviour at all, just lots of spoilt children who have never heard NO and think they can treat people however they like

I grew up in the 70's/80's. Here's what's different now :

Parents not allowed to smack

Violent video games on tap

Kids have smart phones and internet access - violent Porn on tap

Music videos that promote gang culture and violence as "Cool"

Very little punishment in school for bad behaviour

No winners or losers at anything (lest kids feelings be hurt)

Parents asking children to do things, instead of telling them

Children assumed to be ND if they are naughty - no punishments given

Children who are genuinely ND being in mainstream school

Children being shoved onto screens in restaurants or in social settings, when they should be being taught how to behave in those places

Children spending hours cooped up in bedrooms on screens, instead of playing out in the fresh air and getting properly tired.

And before anyone jumps on me about the smacking, if you look at other species, almost all of them dole out physical consequences to bad behaviour. Look at dogs, for example, if a puppy is too boisterous, the Mum will give it a growl and a swipe and the puppy stops in it's tracks : it's literally how the puppy learns. I don't mean punching, I mean a slapped hand or bottom. I have watched a friend of mine get punched in the face by her son, and she didn't retaliate. I would have dealt with it very differently. Children are supposed to be a little bit afraid of their parents, if they do something wrong. We all were in the 70's and 80's, and we grew up fine.

I've recently started work in a secondary school. Something that has really shocked me is how often the boys will attempt to intimidate me, if I move them on or tell them to do something, by moving into my space/towards me or past me. Not sure if this is new but it's really surprised me.

I work with children (and their parents) who are 'troubled' or who are on the 'edge of care' children who are usually behaving violently to their peers, siblings, parents, etc.

Gentle parenting is not the problem.

Chaotic families. Domestic violence. Trauma. Adoption. A lack of parental engagement. Parental addiction. These are the things they have in common.

I'm always shocked at the number of primary aged children who smartphones at all and ipads that they spend hours on in their rooms. Secondary aged students who have smartphones with no parental controls on.

Poor teachers have to deal with so much.

Parents blame teachers. Parents are failing their children. Parents need to step up.

Poverty has always existed. What was different was respect for teachers.

Children know they can get away with so much. Free style let them do what they want when they want.

Yes it really isn't gentle parenting

Or this

Parents not allowed to smack

Hitting children won't help

Both of them work ! There is the answer .
There is nobody to parent kids anymore.
It’s both parents working , expensive tech and fast food.

Who teaches the morals and values . Who builds the bonds . Who nurtures.

I agree. My child is only in year 2 but there are already plenty of her peers with absolutely no boundaries, and no respect for adults. Lots of parents that want to be 'friends' with their children, not parent them, and then wonder why they're disrespectful little shits. Even at the age of 7 you can see so clearly the kids who have parents like this - god help the teachers when they're older

And before anyone jumps on me about the smacking, if you look at other species, almost all of them dole out physical consequences to bad behaviour. Look at dogs, for example, if a puppy is too boisterous, the Mum will give it a growl and a swipe and the puppy stops in it's tracks : it's literally how the puppy learns.

Are the puppies then well-behaved in school? Is knife crime low among puppies?

I've posted before about two lads at two secondary schools I knew, who in later years both went to prison for committing violent crimes. One was a particularly nasty crime, apparently.
I was just saying to my DH yesterday that both of these schools (90s) seemed better able to keep lads in line when they were actually at school, but then there were many male teachers then who either seemed to have been high level in sports, e.g. basketball or boxing, or had ex-forces backgrounds and/or connections to the TA. Some of them were quite vocal with opinions that would be unpopular today, though.
Having said that, once these two lads were out of the school environment, they did go down the wrong path, so maybe in their cases (and similar) the can was just being kicked down the road?

I agree. Me and my son had the misfortune of going away for a minibreak with one of my best friends and her son who is 2 years older than mine.
My son is autistic and has sensory processing disorder but is extremely well behaved and polite. We have strong boundaries and consequences for both of our kids.
Her son started off by directing me,( an adult he hasn't had much to do with in my own car) to turn the air-conditioning off, change the music, I was driving too slowly. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I could see my son's face in the back seat and he was shocked too as we don't speak or direct adults like that.

Friend didn't tell him off at all and the break continued in the same thread of him needing to control everything we did and physically attacking his mother when she did not comply. I refused to go along with him. I wasn't scared of him and told him I was an adult and I made the decisions. He clearly has been raised with no respect whatsoever. He tried to direct me to leave somewhere we were visiting as he didn't like it. You can imagine my response.

God only knows how he will turn out as a teenager.

FGS its not gentle parenting that is leading to kids taking knives into schools.

Its family breakdown, boys growing up without positive male role models to help them grow in decent men, parents pressurised and working full time and not having the time to give to their kids, lack of extended families to help raise kids, under funded, under resourced, under staffed schools. Its communities and families under stress. Its lack of mental health NHS services for kids and teens.

There are lots of reasons but middle class gentle parenters are not it.

I've posted about this on MN many times before, but I personally think some of it comes down to the absolute glorification of anxiety around your children - and so trying to control them and their environment - as the mark of good parenting. I have found parenting to be such a challenge to my own methods of controlling my anxiety - hard-fought for, through years of therapy - because having disordered thoughts about your children ('I want to make sure nothing bad ever happens to them!' 'Even the tiniest risk is too much of a risk!') is not only not challenged but actively endorsed as good. I think MN is bad for this, but so is lots of well-meaning official advice. I know so many parents who were terrified out of their wits by safe sleeping advice and the like and now have primary-aged children that they still think they should be trying to watch/guard constantly to keep them safe, which leads to really inappropriate behaviour like challenging the school over trying to implement any kind of behaviour management.

It's how the puppies grow into good well rounded dogs, who behave well around other dogs. The puppies who are taken away from their mothers too young, tend to learn the boundaries in day care, when older dogs will give them a swipe if they are too boisterous. They learn from the adults.

I voted you are NU but as a parent rather than a teacher, I am a strict parent who wishes teachers were allowed to be stricter. My DCs teacher is fairly strict as teachers go but there’s only so much they can do. There are some horrendously behaved kids at my DCs school but the teachers just aren’t able to do enough about it. DDs teacher last year just clearly couldn’t be arsed to discipline them and the Head seems to think the behaviour of the kids at his school is exemplary - it’s anything but!

This. It starts at birth. Mums now aren’t allowed to feed their babies and put them down to sleep. If they whimper, they have to pick them up and keep hold of them, in a sling or let them sleep on Mum. As they get older they are never told ‘no’.

These kids have never experienced the slightest discomfort, and parents are taught that they must prevent their children experiencing even slight discomfort at all costs. By the time they start school, they can’t cope with anything that isn’t 100% comfortable to them. They’ve never needed to learn to self-regulate.

We’re killing them with kindness.

@Blondiebeachbabe I don't think using puppies as a guide to hitting anyone, let alone children, is a good way to go

The parents of today are the results of the parents of the 80s and 90s, so no use saying how much better that era was, since they spawned us and we seem to be messing up parenting the next generation!