Was I rude? (Being told to smile)

[ElevenBells]

Out shopping with DD 8 and waiting in the self checkout queue. Just waiting quietly with DD stood slightly behind me when I spot a man saying something to her. Didn’t quite catch what he said so turned round and DD was looking up at me a bit embarrassed.
Then I heard the man say something a long the lines of ‘go on let’s have a smile then’. I didn’t address him but said to DD ‘you don’t have to smile because a strange man tells you to, just ignore him’. Then went to scan my shopping.
A woman near him commented to him how rude I was. And he responded with something like ‘no wonder the kids that way if she has a mother like that’. As we left the shop DD said I embarrassed her. Feel bad now but I remember being a quiet kid like DD and putting up with requests to smile because apparently little girls need to have a constant grin plastered across their face. Did I overdo it? DD seems to think I did but tbh I’d have liked to say more.

My thoughts exactly.

Oh God, who fucking cares! He was a rude twat, and he deserved it.
You’re still expecting her to smile, and she doesn’t have to.

That is always the golden rule for checking out stupid male behaviour, "would he say or do this to another man?" . Of course he wouldn't, he's another one who feels that females arelesser beings, there to do as he says . I would have felt like punching him. I am in a foul mood today, just fed up with the way so many people feel they can do and say as they please and then get nasty when somebody challenges them

Good for you.

I bet he doesn't tell 6 ft, 20 stone blokes to smile.

Well done you. He was a wanker and that woman should mind her own business

I didn't say anything was wrong with being a bit rude. OP asked if what she said was rude, and I replied that it was, a bit, and suggested a small amendment which would stop it being even slightly rude.
I wasn't telling OP what she 'ought' to say, but actually I think messages like this can be stronger when given with no element of personal attack. The fact that OP replied to her daughter rather than addressing the 'giz us a smile love' merchant was particularly powerful.

I have a resting butch face so I get this fairly often, I always reply with a cheerful ‘fuck off’ and a smile

Definitely not unreasonable.
I hate how some men think they have a right to tell random girls/women what to do.
I always speak up against it now, even if it makes others feel uncomfortable.

How was she rude?

The only thing you did wrong was not telling the nosy woman to mind her own business.

You absolutely were not rude. You were putting a creepy old prick in his place. Hopefully she will learn to stand up for herself. She didn't owe him a smile.

Well done for advocating for your child. One day she'll be able to speak up for herself but for now you are her role model. Every day sexism should be called out.
If a boy pushes in front of a girl, and she lets him, I will always call him out on it, highlighting to the boy that he's pushed in and should wait his turn. The girl might say it's ok (to avoid confrontation) but I would say to her, no it's your turn so take it. I can't bear girls being passive. I work with teenagers so see this a lot.

Awesome!!!

No, you are not unreasonable. I hate men who go around saying 'smile' to women. We are not there to make them feel good so they can fuck off.

Good on you for teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to bow to the patriarchy.

Hmmm.

As far as he's concerned you were totally fine. He was being patronizing and your comment was pointed but relatively mild.

But also I wouldn't just dismiss your DD's feelings. Your goal was to make her feel empowered and like she had your backing but she just wanted to ignore the annoying man (which is a valid choice when there aren't safety concerns) so unfortunately the result was that she ended up feeling even more powerless and upset. I share all of your feelings about the wider issues and implications behind men telling girls/women to smile but neither your feelings nor making a point to him were more important than your DD's agency and feelings in that moment.

I think she's old enough for you to explain in basic terms why what he said was rude and that it's important to you that she knows that she doesn't need to smile to smile for strangers and that she's comfortable speaking up when someone is being condescending or rude. But also acknowledge that you accidentally embarrassed her when you jumped in. Ask her what would have made her feel most supported in that moment.

Well this is it, isn't it?

They don't say it to other men.

They don't say it to daughters who are out with their.dads because they know full well that other men would tell them to fuck off and they might even get a punch in the face to go with it.

They rely on women being nice. Women don't need to be nice.

I don't think we need worry ourselves too greatly about their motivation. That's making it an 'us' problem. It is very definitely a 'them' problem.

There's a vast difference between the 'smile love!' variety of public idiot and the bloke in the sauna at the gym for eg. This guy strikes up a friendly conversation whilst we happen to be occupying the same space: ie the pool was freezing today wasn't it?, or 'did you manage to get anywhere near the hydropool today', or 'wow it's busy today, always the same in January' or other pleasantries of that type. The latter variety I engage in frequently. The former I'm less and less tolerant of the more it happens to me, and the more I hear stories of it happening to other women and girls.

Therefore, the usual tedious protestation of 'man-hating' that's regularly churned out on threads like this, doesn't apply. It isn't men I object to. It's the variety of arsehole who thinks women owe them smiles, time, conversation and 'niceness', when all we want to do is go about our day in peace, who deliberately approach women in public to that end, that I have the problem with - and I have a very big problem. Nor do I shy from making that clear.

Cue the nastiness and aggression that immediately comes our way when we refuse to humour their BS. That should tell us something about the kinds of men these are.

It's not us. It's them. I have no idea why so many women seem so determined to pander to this behaviour. I do know that I am not one of them, nor am I going to berate other women for being the same.

The rude ones were the man who pestered your daughter for a smile and the woman who butted in. The irony of telling someone they are rude while implying they ruining their child. I guess the both of them should know, because they don't have any manners either.

If I meet someone’s eyes I’ll smile. I’m not gonna tell them to smile if they don’t smile back - that’s just weird, if you ask me.
I remember my mum telling me that if somebody was staring at me to jump around to give them something to look at.
People have gotten very, very odd and very bold.
Mind your own f**king business, whether it’s standing in line at the market or sitting in the audience at the movie theatre.
MYOFB.

Oh well too bad - he shouldn’t say creepy things to little girls when their mums are standing next to them.

OP guided her daughter how to respond to the situation, because his comment was a) inappropriate and b) unnecessary.
What OP said wasn't confrontational, the man probably took it as rude because he would have been fully expecting cooperation from the child, or the mother to insist on cooperation from the child, because it's fully expected by a lot of people that women and girls do what's needed to keep men happy and in control.
It wasn't the lack of smile that pissed him off, it was the lack of OP and her daughter acquiescing to his want that did.
And that's the problem.

‘you don’t have to smile because a strange man tells you to, just ignore him’

Fuck yes.

I've never recovered from the arseholes who suggested when Harriet Tubman's picture was finally put on money in the US that they should have had a picture of her smiling. digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=d5715438-4feb-4e5b-86b8-6838982189f3

And on your DD feeling embarrassed. Work with her on boundaries. Explain that sometimes we have to choose to be a little embarrassed to make the world a better place, assert our boundaries, be heard. DD used to find me embarrassing because I model, and taught her to, take up space in the world. She no longer finds me embarrassing, and in fact in dodgy or worrying situations prefers me over DH (who looks like a slightly scarier Mike Tyndall). Despite the fact that he could take people out, she trusts me to navigate hard-for-women environments.

We need to insist on the world being better for our daughters.

See also:

Thanks random man
It just did (in response to 'it might never happen')
Fuck off (child's ears covered of course)
Don't talk to my 8 year old child without permission
Come here darling, we don't talk to random strange men

She will have to navigate this alone in her teens. Best give her the arsenal.

You were right, they were wrong. We shouldn’t be teaching our children to be people pleasers, and we certainly shouldn’t be teaching our daughters to do what strange men say, or that they have a duty to respond positively to them to brighten their day or whatever.
It’s sad to see that 8% say YABU. But then this is AIBU, and some people on here will vote YABU every time.

Spot on.

It is sad. Some women are misogynists unfortunately so that's probably the 8%, some of them will be blokes as well. I've noticed men popping up on threads. It's not Dadsnet is it? 😂get back to Reddit or pornhub.