To think they call us Karen because they fear us

[InformEducateEntertain]

I absolutely hate the term Karen. It's pejorative and deeply unpleasant.

Middle aged women (of whom I am one and to whom the term is most generally applied) are bloody amazing. Putting us down for our don't give a f**k badass attitude and willingness to fight back strikes me as lazy categorisation.

I'd go as far to say that those who use it are scared by the knowledge that looking the menopause in the eye has given us the courage to have a voice at last.

AIBU?

Why not just say “racist”?

What would your response be if I told you that you’re racist, JandamiHash?

The term 'Karen' is not used for any middle-aged woman, so I don't understand the outrage. It's specifically referring to a woman who behaves in an appalling manner - bullying, aggressive, unreasonable, rude and often racist.

You would not be called a Karen for, say, making a reasonable complaint in a normal tone. You would be called a Karen for screaming at and threatening someone in the street because they're doing something perfectly reasonable which you happen not to like.

Again I wonder if there are any men who behave this way? 🤔

Any “funny” memes about men doing “aggressive” things like asking to speak to the manager? (and no, screaming and threats are not required, especially if you have a “Karen haircut”)

There was a video doing the rounds a couple of weeks ago of a 'Karen'. She'd been driving. A male driver tailgated her on icy roads. They had a confrontation. She slapped him. He 'body slammed' her to the ground and left her lying there on the ice.

Granted, both acted badly. But this was presented as a hilarious takedown of a Karen. The video was called road rage Karen.

This had nothing to do with race. It was all about a man teaching a bolshy woman a lesson, by using violence.

You repeatedly ask for “evidence” of such incidents as if white supremacy is going to be heavily documented in a white supremacist society

I asked once for examples of The word “Karen” started in the Black American community when white women would call the police on black people for little to no reason at all. For example, jogging in public, having a family gathering in a public park. You replied with an incident falsely accusing a rape victim of being a ‘Karen’ by the above definition

You have been given several examples and are still choosing to run with the one example I gave in which I wrongly thought the woman was the accuser

Several examples does not indicate a problem whereby black men are oppressed by white women to the point a sexist term is deserved for all women who dare to make a complaint

Are you not the least bit mortified that you made a false accusation about a rape victim? That you didn’t even bother to check what you were posting?

You have denied all of the other examples that people have given to you.

No I haven’t. Stop making things up

You claim that “white women as a group are not an issue”.

They’re not and despite your claims to the contrary you can’t provide any iota of factual evidence to prove this. Opinions in a Patricia’s world don’t count

You clearly do not know many black people if that’s your thought.

I know plenty of black people and they do not believe white women are their enemy

Women like you are the problem.

no I’m not. Handmaidens like you who go off theory rather than fact and bow and scrape to apologise when you’ve done nothing wrong, are the problem. I mean why wouldn’t as a woman you be on your own side?

Unless you can’t present me with evidence (not feelings opinions or voices of people who are part of a sexist class aka men) your theory that white women are the problem holds about as much water as a flat eather’s opinions

But your claim wasn’t that racist hate crime was mainly a male problem.

Yes it was. Men perpetuate racism at vastly higher rates than women. Thats what I said

You claimed that racism in and of itself was mainly a male problem

It’s not my fault if you can’t read properly. See above.

Now try to back up your claim that racism, not just violent or criminal manifestations of it, is a male problem.

I already did.

How about you back up your claim that women are the main perpetrators of racism?

It's sexist and designed to shut us up.
I've skimmed the responses and notice someone thought we should be called a Karen for using the wrong tone.
Someone else decided Karen is only used for women who are wrong. Who decides we are wrong?

But you’re the only one talking about racist violence and equating it with the totality of racism.

And of course your second paragraph is another key tenet of Karen behaviour - prioritising the feelings of white women in a discussion about racism.

And for the hat trick, you keep pretending this is only about the interaction of white women and black men. Actually the most likely victims of Karen behaviour are other women, for a few reasons:

1. it is a power and privilege dynamic - and whereas white women will sometimes have power over men of colour, they much more often have power and control over women of colour;
2. Karen behaviour is often manifested in social circles - which for women is more likely to include other women;
3. Karen behaviour is often exhibited in service settings, which are disproportionately staffed by women - and particularly by working class women and women of colour.

The high profile examples of Karen behaviour where it affects black men are relevant but they are not the full or even a majority of the picture of what we’re discussing.

But as with your insistence if only talking about violence and hate crime when we talk about racism, you reach for the most simplistic lens through which to view Karen behaviour in terms of who is subject to it.

And of course your second paragraph is another key tenet of Karen behaviour - prioritising the feelings of white women in a discussion about racism.

You really aren't listening to what people are telling you, are you? You're off in your own little world, like an anti-vaxxer.

The Karen insult rarely has anything to do with racism.

Again racist hate crime is not the sum of just violence or hate crime.

Your constant claim to the contrary shows you don’t know very much about this discourse.

I can’t be a Karen person because my name isn’t Karen.

Why do you persist in using a term about women that women have told you is harmful?
I think you’re trying to be as misogynistic as possible like the misogynist you are

I cannot tell you how much I admire your stamina @JandamiHash 😁

You would not be called a Karen for, say, making a reasonable complaint in a normal tone. You would be called a Karen for screaming at and threatening someone in the street because they're doing something perfectly reasonable which you happen not to like.

No sorry, but that isn’t the case. I won’t go into detail but the responses to a query that I posted on our village FB page (about an abandoned vehicle in our village car park of all things) escalated so quickly with Karen insults in the comments that I had to ask for it to be deleted. It was hugely upsetting and my DH was furious.

Anyone can be a "Karen"

If their parents named them so

Anything else us just daft.

Ageist. Misogynistic. And used by people who need to get out more.

Could you define the "most protected group in society" please? It surely can't be one that involves being a woman?

Most protected group in society? White men I assume.
White women are still subjected to male violence and misogyny though.

First of all it’s very strange to assume the race and class of a stranger on the internet. But I’ll play along:
Even white middle class women are part of an oppressed class. They are part of the women who:
2 are killed a week by partners
1 in 10 are raped
1 in 4 experience DV
1 in 5 experience sexual assault.

Tbis is not a class to be feared and it’s certainly not acceptable to claim that because they presumably have ‘privilege’ over another class that they should not have a relevant voice or a place at the table. I don’t agree with the impression Olympics that only the most oppressed are relevant (this BTW is also subjective)

And if you’re scared of me can I suggestion you get yourself a very large grip? If someone having a difference of opinion poses a threat to you may I suggest finding yourself an echo chamber rather than a public forum?

Do you know what scares me?

1. Misogynists. Especially when women have internalised misogyny. I almost expect men to hate women but when women start to hate other women that is terrifying. Especially when those women falsely claim that a woman who WAS violently raped are lying about it
2. People who think those who don’t subscribe to their world view should sit down and STFU, or else they have an accusation like “racist” hurled at them.

I found this article interesting. It is written by a black woman in the U.S. who took to her local Facebook group to complain about a noisy food truck and was accused by a few people of being a Karen.

She points out, "...a person flagging a potential noise violation is not the same as a white person calling the cops on a Black person for no reason." She ends the article by saying "So-called Karens - apologies to those who unfairly share the name - make a community worse by weaponsizing race and using police to further their agenda. I speak out to enhance my neighbourhood. That's not being a Karen. That's called being a citizen."

And she is of course right, but that didn't stop her being called a Karen by those presumably trying to invalidate her opinion or make her feel bad. I think this highlights the problem of using non specific language to describe behaviours. I wonder if a man on that Facebook group with the same complaint would have been labelled a Karen?

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-01-02/race-karen-neighborhood-facebook-page

Oh and BTW @GretchenWienersHair you took a high profile case and without Eve looking into it assumed that because black men were falsely accused, it must have been a woman doing it. You didn’t even bother your arse to read the story. You assumed a “Karen” was at the heart of it when actually the woman not called Karen was receiving from a brutal raping and beating whilst in a coma

THAT is terrifying.

Maybe I have different standard to you but I don’t accept “Some people may or may not feel this towards women” as evidence or a factor in why we should use misogynistic terms

It’s also quite ironic you bang on about it’s not just insidious acts that are racist” to prove your point about a sexist micro aggression

No it’s because it’s a misogynist term and we women are sick of jt

Anyway you’ve changed your tune - I thought it was about racism??

How is using a sexist term more powerful than saying what the offence is called: racist?

I’ll tell you why - because Karen isn’t used about racism at all anymore. Karen is used because the name of the offence is “I don’t like women speaking up”. So they use a coy name to thinly veil their sexism

I’m happy to label racism as racism! Thats my point.

Amy Cooper was racist. She was not a Karen because her name is Amy

KKK members are racist. Unless they are called Karen they are not a Karen

Karen is subtle sexism but apparently women don’t matter