To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

[NovemberMorn]

Joanna Lumley has just given an interview in which she says..."I never minded wolf whistling, I always thought it was tremendous".

She also said... "I think we were a little bit tougher then. Somebody put their hand on your leg, you didn’t feel affronted and report it. You’d give them a slap.”

Do you think she is right?

@dairydebris out of interest, when you reflect on these experiences do you see them differently?
I know that there are experiences I had which at the time I either didn't challenge or thought were normal but when I reflect back on them they make me uncomfortable.

It's an interesting question.
I definitely had interactions with older men that would be seen as completely inappropriate now. My memory of them doesn't include feelings of powerlessness tho, I still feel these were choices I made, and experiences I enjoyed.
I guess with current thinking some of these could be re framed. But I'm not sure that I'd like to reframe any of them. I loved being young, I loved figuring things out, I loved finally being away from my family and being free to make my own way, and own mistakes and learn from them.
I try to avoid thinking of myself as a victim as much as possible. I don't want that as a part of my personal narrative.

I try to avoid thinking of myself as a victim as much as possible. I don't want that as a part of my personal narrative.

I don't see myself as a victim. Acknowledging that men have (and still do) behaved inappropriately towards me doesn't mean I see myself as a victim.

I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that if you object to inappropriate behaviour or were made to feel intimidated by a man then you're a victim.

I think there's a difference between stating you felt unharmed by something and extrapolating from that the thing is objectively harmless. I think there are enough women who do feel harmed by it to make a strong case that it is objectively harmful, despite some women's feelings to the contrary. Where Lumley and some other posters are wrong is they are basing their judgement solely on their own feelings rather than considering others, calling for a return to tolerance of a thing that has no objective benefit to women, other than to boost the egos of a minority at the expense of harm to others.

I never forget a friend of mine threatening to break a mans fingers at a posh dinner when he put his hand on her thigh under the table, it had us all in stitches. I don't think he ever groped another woman again

I agree that if a man behaves inappropriately then that doesnt make you a victim. It speaks only of that individual man. As I've said, like many others I have been a victim. But I think men should own their poor behavior and I don't internalize it if I don't need to. If something doesn't actually offend me, should I be offended? I don't want to retrospectively feel intimidated or victimized by something that didn't make me feel that way at the time. What would be the point of that? To re write my history?

The thing is, even if wolf whistling didn’t bother me, the fact that it makes others feel uncomfortable and intimidated is enough to make me think that the fact it’s now seen as unacceptable is a good thing. Why would anyone want others to feel uncomfortable just so that can get their split second of flattery and validation? Who actually gains from wolf whistling? And who lost out by it being ‘cancelled’?

100% agree with this.
Was just sharing my internal experience as others seemed interested.

I agree that if a man behaves inappropriately then that doesnt make you a victim. It speaks only of that individual man. As I've said, like many others I have been a victim. But I think men should own their poor behavior and I don't internalize it if I don't need to. If something doesn't actually offend me, should I be offended? I don't want to retrospectively feel intimidated or victimized by something that didn't make me feel that way at the time. What would be the point of that? To re write my history?

But nobody is telling you to do that. You've decided that's what people are asking.

Reflecting on past situations isn't asking you to change how you felt at the time. It's more of a 'I can't believe that was seen as acceptable' type of reflection and a consideration about how we think women should be treated.

Do you have daughters or young female relatives? How would you feel if they were cat called?
if you have sons do you think that it's an acceptable way for them to behave?

It was fucking awful being a young woman in the 80s. Fact.
Gropey middle aged men
Endless comments
Overt sexism.

Wolf whistling is horrible but back then women were encouraged to think of it as a compliment. What men fail to understand is that wolfwhistling and 'hello gorgeous' etc when you come into work put women in their place: You are nothing but a sexual object and I have the right to judge you and decide whether you pass my 'would-shag' test.

And Lumley is right that we learned to be resilient in those days. I remember a friend's dad groping my breast after giving me a lift home. I didn't feel violated, I felt pissed off. Next time I saw him I was with a pretty friend and said to him, 'If you grope her I will knee you in the balls.' He laughed, but didn't grope her. If I am honest I do think women these days need more of that sort of resilience - NOT because we should tolerate it, but because the current trend of collapsing with trauma at being groped puts women firmly in passive victim mode and that too is very low status, socially. I prefer the 'Do that again and I'll slice your balls off while you sleep' attitude.

But the main point is - we shouldn't have to contemplate this. I tried to explain to DH the other day that when pretty young women start work they never get the freedom to have a meeting or a drink after work with the boss, knowing it is just about work, as young trainee men do. Every single day when I was young my radar was on high alert: is he being nice and mentoring me because he values my work or wants to bed me? Do I seem keen at my job or am I accidentally sending flirtatious messages if I smile? We should have the right to just go to work and think about work, be mentored and value the mentoring, respond to training without thinking we are sending mixed messages. To just get on with life. We should have the freedom to walk down the road without fat-bellied scaffolders letting us know if they think we're fuckable. It's the tiny but constant pressure on our brains and our bodies that makes us feel a predator has eyes on us. And of course it has an effect.

Yes this is exactly what I think. There is some utterly bizarre logic on this thread.

A friend of mine had to get the tube to school every morning in the late Seventies, early Eighties. She was groped all the time. She told me once that she grabbed the hand that was groping her and pulled it in the air and shouted 'Anyone know who this hand belongs to, because I just found it between my legs and it isn't mine!' She's now at the top of a very prestigious profession, worth a fortune. You needed that kind of self-worth and bravery to get on in those days.

Well, I thought people were asking if someone wasn't offended ( which I wasn't ) then to explain why. I tried to explain why, and people have tried to tell me why I was wrong to feel that that. Apologies if I misunderstood. Again- I do not say it's ok to cat call, I simply say why it didn't bother me personally.

I do have daughters and a son. They are growing up in a different world, social rules are different. One child would shout back that's it's rude to talk like that. The other might well internalize it and wonder why a man would shout like that. It's a constant challenge trying to parent each appropriately given their different personalities. I'd hope my son wouldn't shout at girls, he's been taught not to comment on women's bodies, good or bad.

@dairydebris

If something doesn't actually offend me, should I be offended? I don't want to retrospectively feel intimidated or victimized by something that didn't make me feel that way at the time.

No, but I would argue that it's wrong to repeatedly label something as objectively harmless just because you didn't feel personally harmed by it.

You can feel unbothered by a certain behaviour but recognise that it's perfectly understandable others do feel bothered and that on balance, it means it's a problematic behaviour.

If you look back at my posts I never labeled it objectively harmless, and said it's definitely better stopped as so many find it so unpleasant.

I'm merely trying to explain why I personally found it harmless, as some directly asked. I absolutely don't mind being challenged on my assumptions but I don't particularly enjoy having words put into my mouth.

I'm going to leave this here now. Thanks.

Your comprehension is seriously defective, nowhere did I say that I did this, I said that it happened.

If you weren't offended by wolf whistling, you didn't understand what it was.

It wasn't meant to make you feel good, or express appreciation. It was a gesture of dominance, and an assertion of men's right to comment on your appearance. It was an expression of objectification of women, and allowing men to do this encouraged them to take other liberties with women's bodies.

How very flattering.

I've actually been astonished at how much safer streets feel now that companies don't allow this type of behaviour - and I have never been a shrinking violet so I would always give them the finger and swear at them.

Maybe some builders did see it as a "gesture of dominance". However I don't think you should tar all of them with the same brush. It was a bit of a "game" which a lot of people didn't take too seriously including me. In my twenties, feeling young and "free", I walked past the same building site in central London every morning...sometimes it was a whistle, sometimes a "mornin' darlin", they were 20 feet up, I responded with a wave and a laugh...that really was it. Nothing more (for me anyway).
Like a PP I don't feel I should revisit my experience and navel gaze that I was being objectified, as I definitely did NOT feel that was the case. There were creeps around, but these builders were not in that category. It was light hearted (something that seems to be in short supply) and a bit of fun.

Possibly my comprehension is defective but my inference skills are great.

You did suggest that your “very old memory” might be open to question and I agree with you that’s the case. I am confident that the numbers of girls and women who were cat calling men to see their “builders crack” is in the category of slim to none. Maybe this is something you personally did or wanted to do? Hence the question.

Exactly that for me too, well said.

It is a good thing that it doesn't happen today, (much) people have changed, attitudes have changed, women have certainly changed.
What was seen as inconsequential back then by many, seems to be seen as a major sin now.

It's odd that some women here have tried to demean the women who didn't find it offensive. Were we really grateful for attention, desperate to be noticed, sad little wallflowers who craved a big fat hairy arsed builders approval?
Nope, we were young women who didn't give a toss because we had a confidence and an inner self belief that these men were unimportant in our lives, not big bad monsters waiting to pounce on a trembling little flower.

I started by saying JL was right in relating HER thoughts ... I finish on the same note.

Thanks for the debate. x

Nope, we were young women who didn't give a toss because we had a confidence and an inner self belief that these men were unimportant in our lives, not big bad monsters waiting to pounce on a trembling little flower.

Are you suggesting that those of us who found it offensive/derogatory/intimidating are (or were) trembling little flowers?

Perhaps we just had higher expectations around how we expected to be treated by men.

So, your take away from 19 pages of debate OP is -Wolf whistling was absolutely fine when it was fine, which was at some point in the past when that stuff was fine.
We know this was fine because some women on here found it a flattering ego boosting piece of fun. They think this because they are confident and resilient with such high self esteem and toughness they didn't care about builders, other than wolf whistling ones who were very flattering.
The real problem here as usual is actually women. Because women are demeaning each other by thinking wolf whistling is a bad thing. What women need to do is be tough and resilient and laugh cheerily at harassment then slap the men in the face.
Then everything will be fine like it used to be.

15 year old me definitely didn't like being groped and whistled at by grown men no

I don’t know why people keep banging on about this being in the 70s and 80s. I’m in my 30s and got it all of the time until maybe the last few years, where it’s definitely less socially acceptable.

It was never, ever a compliment. They’re doing it to intimidate and embarrass you. I can’t believe some women took it as a compliment.