To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

[NovemberMorn]

Joanna Lumley has just given an interview in which she says..."I never minded wolf whistling, I always thought it was tremendous".

She also said... "I think we were a little bit tougher then. Somebody put their hand on your leg, you didn’t feel affronted and report it. You’d give them a slap.”

Do you think she is right?

Probably not. I'd probably have found that more threatening, due to the proximity.

But at 13-18 ish, I wasn't thinking too much about risk. I wasn't analyzing a cat call. I'd dressed up and walked to the bus stop, and people had whistled at me. It was coherent with my inner self who was absolutely sure she was hot. I was hot, men said I was hot, all made sense.

A few comments are saying it's slightly sad I needed that validation, and perhaps I was suggesting that I should have felt intimidated. Why? I didn't need the validation, I was an extremely confident teenager, but it came anyway and it didn't bother me. And why would it have been better for me to have felt scared, rather than making me feel aware of my own power? How would that have helped?

I am against wolf whistling/ calling.
If a man wants to compliment a lady, then let him do it. And I do not think we should get upset about that, but know how to handle ourselves and take the compliment. Not in the dark, around a lonely corner when some random unknown man makes primitive sounds! Wolf calling does not make is feel safe and sound.

Regarding the hand on leg. The slapping sounds good, but in these days that is assault. You can only remove their hand, meke clear is unwelcomed. And if it happens at work or similar, well then you need to report it, because you do not want the rejection to affect your work life, but HR will not believe it if you say afterwards.
I think she is 100% wrong, for this day and age.

I always felt uncomfortable with it and in my experience wolf-whistling was done to get a reaction (either a laugh from others) or to see me squirm, and groping just wrong and seeing how far he could push it. If you talk back, you would get an ‘ooh, feisty’ type reaction. I used to work in a very male dominated environment. A lot of the men who did it were married with kids, I do not think they were trying to ask me out.

As an older woman I would know how to handle it and have the confidence to deal with it. As a girl, I didn't. I hated and feared it, because I knew it wasn't a compliment but an imposition. As a young professional woman I used to have to walk past a building site on my way to work and would dread this. I remember when that site put up a sign saying they were part of the Westminster Considerate Builders scheme, and the change in behaviour that followed. The realisation that whistling and calling weren't inevitable was both a surprise and relief.

Joanna should maybe stop playing up to the fantasy of the liberated beauty who properly appreciates male gallantry.

And a lot of girls made similar comments regarding 'builders' cracks' if my very old memory serves me well!

The horror of being 15 and having to walk past a building site next to my house. Comments, calls and actual propositions. Ghastly.
I would walk miles to avoid them.

I don't think that, for a grown woman, this ought to be something massively upsetting or met with such hatred as some seem to feel

I don't think anyone had says they were massively upset have they? They've said they felt threatened, intimidated and objectified.

I'm in my 40's now but I remember starting my first job after university. On my first day I was given tour of the site which had multiple buildings and there was a new building being built. As we walked past the building site some of the builders whistled at me.
I was really embarrassed and didn't say or do anything. I'd worked in bars for years so was used to being cat called (and often sexually harassed) and could usually handle myself well, but this was the first day of my graduate career and I was mortified at being objectified like that.

The male colleague giving me a tour complained on my behalf and I received an apology from the building company. This was over 20 years ago now.

No.

and frankly a lot of it was aimed when girls are underaged.

there is no scenario when a strange man touching you up is fun. Not sure why we have to let strange men feel us up to learn resilience.

I like being whistled at but I wear crop tops and dresses and spend alot of time at the gym/money on my appearance. I think it's uncalled for if a woman is dressed normally or jogging though

WTF. So if a woman is dressed sexily then she's asking for it?!

No. It’s what it represents - men’s ‘right’ to judge a girl or woman and make unsolicited comments or approaches.
I got my first ‘wolf whistle’ and cat calling at 12 from grown men and it was confusing and humiliating- I still remember the feeling of powerlessness.

I like Joanna Lumley but on this I think she’s a fuck wit and as a model in the 60s it probably wasn’t too bad for her.

You were attracted to “builders bum”
I remember that as a synonym for being uncouth. It wasn’t desirable and girls didn’t shout “show us your crack” at builders!

Thats a very strange set of alternatives - “suck my dick” or a wolf whistle. What about neither?

Most people I know are polite although they seldom wear hats.

What comments about builders’ cracks did these ‘girls’ make TO said builders? It’s not something I can imagine. Was it ‘show us yer builder’s crack’? And was this unsolicited or in retaliation? Or are you just misremembering stuff? Because yes, it was something people commented on due to the proliferation of builders’ arse cracks peering over their trousers when they bent over to work on something. But I can’t imagine it was ever said TO the builders, except maybe when joking among themselves.

You are seriously offering up children laughing at a glimpse of arse as a like for like with adult men sexualising those same children?

There's nothing wrong with being pleased you are attractive to men. If you're a heterosexual woman it's pretty useful. But there's surely a difference between being attractive to the sort of men you'd want to date and being attractive to wolf whistlers? These men would fancy the charge hands broom if someone put a skirt on it, so of course they thought a young woman dressed up for a night out was hot. I just don't understand how you can be both extremely confident AND find positive meaning in this sort of thing. Of course it's good you weren't scared, but I'm still surprised you registered it as a good thing and thought these men fancying you (alongside pretty much every other female from 12 to...when does it stop?) gave you a special power.

@Whotenanny

I'd rather be wolf whistled at than a man shouting "suck my dick, bitch" at me. The former makes me roll my eyes, the second scares me.

Has anyone at all said they'd prefer the latter?

What's the relevance that men do worse things?

We are allowed to not want them to do either thing!

I don't say it was a good thing that they did it.
I just say I personally didn't experience it as intimidating. I also don't think it gave me a particular power, more than any other female. I just experienced it as- I was a girl and no one noticed me, now I am a woman and men notice me. These men on a building site, and other men in the bar, in my class, whatever. I experienced it as a power I hadn't had before.

So you think the harmless catcalling would have seemed more threatening due to proximity?

Can you not see that harmless behavior can’t get more threatening?

Yes. I see that. Girls can be invisible compared with boys, and to, boys. I do understand what you're saying that suddenly you were seen. Does it still happen to you? And if not do you feel 'invisible' again? Obviously you don't have to answer, but you have been really honest and it's interesting to hear your perspective.

It's about respect.
Nobody saying there is anything wrong with wanting people to find you attractive. It's about how that is communicated.

In my opinion a man who thinks it's acceptable to wolf whistle and catcall a woman on the street does not respect women as a class.
Therefore I have zero tolerance for men like that.

Also why do I have to squash down my feelings about hating it and need to work on my resilience? Why can’t creepy men do the work on not being creeps?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your second sentence.

But yes, had l had to walk within a few feet of a group of men shouting at me I'm sure I would have found it intimidating. But that didn't happen. For me it was men far away that I could hardly even see, the odd shout.

In saying 'can you not see... etc' you seem to be suggesting that my experience of this was incorrect. I just don't agree. You can't retrospectively rewrite my experience of it. You seem to be saying I was wrong to feel that way about it. I don't agree with that. It was harmless to me.

Ha!
No, I no longer get cat called! I'm old and fat, I don't dress with particular care. If I was to I would definitely assume someone was trying to take the piss, I guess because it no longer jibes with my internal experience of myself. I'd ignore, or roll my eyes. I'm once again invisible and I'm cool with that. I can tell the difference though.

But this thread seems to have degenerated into people telling me I was incorrect to feel the way I did. I don't agree. I was never assaulted by a cat caller. You might say it's a spectrum of behavior. That's not been my experience. My troubles have always come from those keeping quiet in the background, not the shouty ones.