To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

[NovemberMorn]

Joanna Lumley has just given an interview in which she says..."I never minded wolf whistling, I always thought it was tremendous".

She also said... "I think we were a little bit tougher then. Somebody put their hand on your leg, you didn’t feel affronted and report it. You’d give them a slap.”

Do you think she is right?

Women aren't there to be men's entertainment because they are ''bored''.

Exactly this.

Last night I was in a pub and a man told me I should be up dancing so he could look at me . Apparently he expected me to be his entertainment 🙄
Was I supposed to be flattered by this?!

@dairydebris

Because my experience of it just never felt to me like yours did to you. To me, it felt like- 'I have something that you want, and it's up to me whether I give it to you or not, and I won't!

But that's a large part of the point, isn't it?

It isn't 'up to us' if we 'give it to them' or not.

1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime. Not all men let us decide whether we 'give it to them or not'.

And the knowledge of that can cause many women to feel uncomfortable, upset and intimidated by a man they don't know wolf whistling them.

I don't agree with men commenting on women's bodies, and I said so at the beginning.

I have accepted that (according to many here) they have found it offensive, so they are obviously entitled to that view.

I find it harder to accept that the vast majority of men, whether they wolf whistled or not, would be confused between a child and a woman.

When I was a schoolgirl (senior) I and everyone else walked past a building site where a new school was being erected, no one ever complained of being harassed.

I'll try.
Because I was a young girl, just getting used to having a woman's body, and if I'd made the effort and it got noticed I would feel pleased.
As I said above, I always saw it as they wanted something I had, and I knew I wasn't going to give it to some random on a building site, so I held power. Sometimes it's good to be seen. It's hard to describe. For me it was part of the change of being a girl not being noticed, to a woman. I found that empowering. I've always, always enjoyed being a woman, and yes I'm aware it comes with extra risks but I wouldn't change it despite all that. I'm not sexy now and don't miss it a bit btw!

I was one of those 11 yo girls whistled at constantly. Blonde, developed early, tall. But I certainly didn't look 21 at 11.

It did me harm.

OP, you're moving the goalposts around madly. For clarity, do you believe:

1. It's not that bad, even though you've repeatedly been told some women find it so.
2. It's not that bad compared to grooming and raping nowadays. Even though grooming and raping happened back then as well.
3. You believe that men should be allowed to do it because for some ineffable reason you think it prevents them doing worse. It doesn't.
4. Nice men check ID before doing it even though so many women have said it happened to them in childhood, me included.
5. Because you think it's simultaneously harmless, flattering and for some reason hardening for women (which is a good thing...) you think that outweighs the harm it does.

Why you can't see that men could just not have, never have, done it. Women could have gone about their days free from harassment. If men saw a woman they thought was attractive, they could, I don't know, make eye contact and smile nicely. Which would only work if the woman made eye contact, because maybe she thought they were attractive too. Like a human being.

I don’t understand the ‘I’ve never seen it happen’ anecdotes, if not to doubt the accounts of those who have experienced it.
Just because you didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I also agree that a man wouldn’t be confused between a woman and a child. Again, you’ve missed my point. It gives them that plausible deniability, doesn’t it? Of course they know it’s a child, but they can say that they didn’t know. And if wolf whistling is acceptable, well they were just whistling at someone they (claim to) have thought was an adult.

I don't disagree with anything you say. I'm just saying that I didn't experience it like that. I'm not judging myself right or wrong in feeling this way.
Perhaps it's just part of the narrative we all weave around our lives. I didn't see myself as a victim or as harassed in these situations.

I guess if you feel flattered by being wolf whistled at there’s nothing to stop you heading down to your local building site and letting them know that you’d welcome it when you walk past. They can give you a bit of an ego boost whenever you want! And those of us with higher standards can continue to be spared.

'I have something that you want, and it's up to me whether I give it to you or not, and I won't!'

Honestly Dairy, you seem really lovely but you have just objectified yourself.

The men didn't know you, you are referring to them wanting your vagina right? Not you as a human being.
How is that empowering? I'm flummoxed. I think of myself as human first and not vagina first.

This is hilarious.

”Women learnt to handle themselves in a non-threatening way”

So women who might vocally object to this are now ‘threatening’?! To whom - the poor wolf-whistling non-rapey men who are just trying to brighten their day?

Or do you just mean women in the past graciously (passively) accepted men publicly commenting on their looks? Because that was generally the case in situations where that very same cheeky cheery chappie might turn on a pinhead and start yelling abuse if you failed to respond ‘correctly’ by smiling or whatever. So we put up with it. From about the age of 11 in my case IIRCC.

This bullshit was never a harmless exchange of pleasantries (see also “smile love, it might never happen”. It’s the very tip of the hideous iceberg of entitlement, ownership and misogyny that’s always dictated women’s behaviour in relation to men doing and saying whatever the fuck they feel like. Simper, appease, smile, be suitably grateful, move on quietly. Under no circumstances make a fuss regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel, because to do otherwise could make you vulnerable.

Much as I love JL, @AlbertCamusflage is bang on the money with that comment. It’s all part of the ‘weren’t the 60s, 70, and 80s such fun, wink wink’ and ‘a bit of slap and tickle never hurt anyone’ schtick used to excuse and cover up appalling male behaviour. Jimmy Saville was the fucking embodiment of it.

Another question for you OP… now it’s not deemed to be acceptable, who do you think is missing out? Men? Women? Society?

DD (then 15) took up running during Lockdown and came home every single time upset at being stared at, shouted at, followed etc by men
She stopped doing it.
She did it to improve her fitness and also for her Mental health and she was prevented from doing it by Men

I don't doubt what others have said...if it's their experience, fine, it's not mine.

I think the main point here is I give men a lot more credit than you do.

If they are not confused between a woman and a child (which we agree on) I don't believe the majority of men would have whistled, cat called, or harassed a child.

But to be certain, we would have to have had the men 'guilty' of wolf whistling to clarify their intentions, and I suspect MN is not the sort of forum, men, who would probably be in their dotage by now, would be interested in.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting thread, it's made a day in bed (unwell) go quicker than expected. x😙

Me and my friends were regularly shouted at by men in vans when walking to and from school. Just because you weren't doesn't mean others weren't🙄

I never enjoyed the whistling and certainly not the hand on the leg, bum being pinched. It never felt flattering or complimentary to be, at all.
That being said, I would much prefer to go back to the UK as it was in the past because I think it was safer for women. The whistling etc was essentially harmless and most of ther perpetrators probably would never dream of attacking or assaulting a woman. Now the country is full of animals looking to rape us, grooming gangs etc.

maybe I’m very shallow, but to be honest I never analysed it or gave it a moment’s thought two minutes later!

We’re going round in circles here. Hope you feel better soon. Not least because it means we won’t be subjected to threads like this 😁

Jesus Christ.

Wolf whistling was awful, being touched up was awful, having to 'escape' predatory men in nightclubs was awful. Being told 'cheer up love it might never happen' was also awful. I hated it, always having to be on my guard.

Yes, let's go back to Jack the Ripper days, how fun

But wasn't JL's whole point that weak women nowadays report these things? Wouldn't telling the bar staff fall under reporting it and therefore means you are not tough and you just slap the guy and carry on and watch him do it the next woman/accept the consequences if he decided to hit you back?

Lucky you!
You are amazing.
Bravo

@stonefall101
I’m just saying how I felt.

Is this not allowed on mumsnet or do we have to all follow a party line?

The wolf whistling builders were nothing in comparison to some of the vicious comments on here!!

No, not my vagina. My youth, my body, my time, my chat. They weren't getting any of that.
And of course they didn't know me. Obviously they weren't cat calling my personality.
But then I guess I'd equally objectify almost every single man I'd stare at in a bar, if that's what we are calling it. You look at someone you're attracted to, you try to get their attention, you talk, if you like their personality too then maybe something comes of it. I don't think it's objectification, it's just part of the dance of human attraction.

@dairydebris

I don't think it's objectification, it's just part of the dance of human attraction.

You think that a 40 something bloke on a roofing shift wolf whistles an 18 year old girl he doesn't know

It's the same root belief that men are entitled to do what they want to women's bodies. Some men will catcall (you like that) some men will rape (obviously you don't like that). Both actions are the actions of male entitlement. If we allow, accept or preen in the face of male entitlement it continues. We call it out now, we say it's wrong