Circumcision should be banned.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/01/judge-and-parents-call-for-boys-to-be-protected-from-circumcision

Article describes an upsetting case of two doctors performing these ops without anesthesia, and with sometimes serious side effects. One boy nearly died.

The National Secular Society is running a concurrent campaign to ban all 'religious cutting' - that includes both FGM and male circumcision. I wholeheartedly agree that no baby or child should suffer in this way. More info:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-surgery/

YABU - circumcision for religous reasons is fine
YANBU - circumcision should be banned (unless there is a medical reason)

A lot of MRAs are. They do have legitimate complaints about some things. The issue is other stuff they say. Women are often jointly responsible for circumcision, so I think women need to get more involved in opposing it, plus it's just morally wrong to do this imo. I actually wonder if some MRA's misogyny is rooted in circumcision anger- they ought to blame their fathers too, generally it's just the mother who is blamed.

Circumcision is bloody disgusting.

Mutilating a part of a child's body, and without consent. Vile. It's abuse. If they want to scar a part of their body when they are older through their own choice, go ahead.

However not sure I'm comfortable banning it given its religious (Jewish) connotations. Same way I'm against banning the veil even though it's a form of subjugation.

As a way to navigate round this I'd ban circumcision for non religious (backward) reasons.

The best topic where Islamophobia and anti-semitism can live happily together

It pisses me off that these threads always descend into which type of genital mutilation is worse. Can we just agree that cutting off healthy body parts off children should be banned?

It's like pitting different types of cancers against each other, all are vile.

Read some of these stories - eye opening:

15square.org.uk/anonymous-archive-voices-against-circumcision/

So on a practical basis the outcome might be different for most (but not all) recipients. I say not all because, although I appreciate it’s rare, some men do suffer life long complications due to circumcision. Are they morally so different though? Given in both cases there is zero benefit to the person the procedure is inflicted upon? (I’m not talking about circumcision for medical reasons, obviously.)

I was actually speaking to someone this morning who had this done for their son. I asked why, and the answer was “erm, I don’t know actually, it’s just what we do in my country” and said they actually regretted it because they feel their son was so traumatised by it. Child was under one so I disagree they could be traumatised by it, but still think it’s barbaric and unnecessary (unless there is a medical need of course)

This is an intervention recommended in boys and men of the most potentially sexually active age group in populations where the risk of HIV is very high and the availability of treatments used in other places is much lower.

Risk of harm vs benefit will take the above into consideration, so if a proportion of these men get infections and lose their penises, or can't get it up as easily, or develop chronic pain during sex or when having an erection, it's still absolutely worthwhile for WHO to recommend as all of these are better than increased spread of HIV and the resulting morbidity and mortality in men, women and children.

WHO absolutely don't recommend it in countries where HIV is lower and interventions such as antiretroviral treatments and preventatives such as PrEP are widely available with adequate follow up. The risk/benefit would be completely different.

Yes. People on the pornismisogyny subreddit is also mentioned this. It's a clear demonstration of violence against men to make them conform to male norms, causing pain, decreased pleasure, mental health issues often...

& then it affects women through male insecurity and sexual problems fuelling the demand for anal, which influences porn.

The vast majority of men who are circumcised globally are not fighting to stop the practice though are they? Most see no issue with it.

You give birth to your perfect, wonderful new baby. You can't bear anything that might hurt him, you have bought the softest clothes, the nursery is calm and beautiful and you sing sweet lullabies to help him sleep. Then you get some doc to mutilate his genitalia. HOW DOES THAT COMPUTE!!!

No one should be surgically altering a child’s body unless there is a clear clinical need. It is the child’s body and it should be their choice as an adult if they choose to surgically alter their body.

I don't get the religious argument. Is this just custom, or in the bible does it say 'thou must cut bits of your children's genitalia'?

No downsides??? It reduces sexual pleasure, for a start. The foreskin isn’t just a random skin tag that’s there for no reason. It contains 10,000 nerve endings that contribute to sexual enjoyment:

https://www.mamanatural.com/circumcision-myths-and-facts/

.

People get scars through accidents and what not, and there should be no judgment on that. But to knowingly scar and deform a part of your body, that's sick. Whenever I do watch porn (and it's not often) I cannot watch if the genitalia has been deliberately mutilated.

Its the emperors new clothes, everyone knows it looks wrong, yet there is this weird silence about it. A great big scar across the middle of a member, a bone dry looking member too. Massive ick.

If you're born with all your body parts
They're there for a reason.
You keep them whether male or female.

Well they ain't getting it back. Nothing to be done (although there are procedures that men can try and certain proportion do try these).

That's the argument for infant circumcision of course. Do it when they're too young to remember. But it's a ridiculous argument when don't do it at all is also available.

Cultural norms are also very powerful. It's the "normal" penis in porn and in US environments where men see other men's penises. A lot of US women (if they discuss it at all), think uncircumcised penises look weird. But it's just a norm and norms can change - I've only ever experienced uncircumcised penises and I think circumcised ones look a bit odd tbh.

I made this point earlier - if it wasn’t ‘normal’ in some countries, surely you’d get arrested for suggesting it??

If male circumcision is such a terrible thing it's surprising that more men aren't up in arms about it.

I don’t know what happened with one of my DBs circumcision, but he is very angry about it being done to him . My DM felt very strongly about it not being done, but met so much anger and opposition from the elders in our family, she buckled and both brothers had a bris and one of them a Barmitzvah. By the time my younger DB was of barmitvah age and said he didn’t want one, my DPs had the confidence to stand up for themselves. My DGM asked how my youngest DB would ever know right from wrong if he wasn’t Barmitvahd. DM said he already ready knew because he’d been taught just like the rest of us. I’m proud of the resilience and many of the traditional values of my faith, but circumcision is something I can’t defend.

An adult can choose to wear a veil or not.

An adult can choose their own religion.

Babies cannot choose whether or not they're mutilated due to their parent's religious choices.

And unlike a veil, the mutilation is permanent.

The whole FGM is worse than male circumcision argument is entirely irrelevant.

Chopping someone's hand off isn't as bad as decapitating them but they're both wrong.

Hmm, maybe most tho are older & have some say? I am busy now but I would be interested to compare satisfaction stats for adolescent, adult & infant.

Supremacist?

Jesus wept.

Do you feel the same way about casually cutting off a baby's little toe, or a bit of their ear, or taking a chunk of flesh out of their back at birth for no medical reason? It's really unlikely to have any serious consequences for their life so maybe the parents should be allowed to do it if they believe that God told them to? Or just because their parents did it to them etc.? Or just because they enjoy it? I mean, why does the motive really matter?

Then we don't have to bother lifting a finger to protect those "other" children being mutilated (while continuing to prosecute anyone who does the same to our own children) and, as a Brucey Bonus, we can pat ourselves on the back for our wonderful and tolerant open-mindedness.

I mean, there are well-documented accounts of tribes routinely practicing CSA as part of their culture too. Is it OK for that to continue being done to 'those' kids too (particularly on our shores) so that we don't overstep into colonial supremacy?

If you think that child genital mutilation is, as you say, "cruel", why are you more afraid of being seen to be "supremacist" than preventing cruelty to children?

Where exactly do you draw the line with the moral relativism and on what basis?

Obviously no need to answer if you don't want to - you certainly don't owe me any explanations! But interesting to ponder to yourself who has primed you to be so reticent about calling out things that you clearly feel are truly and seriously wrong and to what end.

Incidentally, and to be very clear in case people draw adverse conclusions - I have a high respect for Judaism on many respects and this is not an opinion I hold because of who is traditionally associated with its practice (the USA seems to have an extremely odd approach to this in general, too, for example).

However not sure I'm comfortable banning it given its religious (Jewish) connotations. Same way I'm against banning the veil even though it's a form of subjugation.

@ChessorBuckaroo so, if it's in the name of religion then we should allow anything? Anything at all? You know the baby doesn't know they're Jewish? Another person has made that choice for them?

As a primary school TA I once went on a school trip a synagogue when the Rabbi talked to children (amongst other things) about how and why baby boys’ were circumcised. ‘Does it hurt?’ Asked one of the children. ‘No, because the foreskin has no nerve endings.’
At the same school, the class teacher insisted in a science lesson that women had fewer ribs than men- ‘because of Adam and Eve’. I’m not sure biology and religion are always a great mix.