Circumcision should be banned.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/01/judge-and-parents-call-for-boys-to-be-protected-from-circumcision

Article describes an upsetting case of two doctors performing these ops without anesthesia, and with sometimes serious side effects. One boy nearly died.

The National Secular Society is running a concurrent campaign to ban all 'religious cutting' - that includes both FGM and male circumcision. I wholeheartedly agree that no baby or child should suffer in this way. More info:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-surgery/

YABU - circumcision for religous reasons is fine
YANBU - circumcision should be banned (unless there is a medical reason)

Anyone who has ever seen a normal human glans can see that it's not supposed to be dried out and toughened up with constant friction.

The 'sensitive area' is exposed when the guy is fully erect anyway. It's supposed to be protected when not 'in use' as it were.

I'm a lesbian myself...Gloria Steinem is certainly not. However, she wasn't saying she agreed. She said some argued this as a point in favour, she herself is against it.
A cursory Google finds some studies arguing increased pleasure, but less, and some seem to have an agenda. Even if it did, which seems less than likely, it's not OK to cut underage people, esp babies.

www.google.com/search?q=does+circumcision+increase+pleasure&oq=does+circumcision+increase+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgCEAAYExiABDIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAAGBMYgAQyCQgCEAAYExiABDIJCAMQABgTGIAEMgkIBBAAGBMYgAQyCQgFEAAYExiABDIJCAYQABgTGIAEMgkIBxAAGBMYgAQyCQgIEAAYExiABDIJCAkQABgTGIAEMgkIChAAGBMYgAQyCQgLEAAYExiABDIJCAwQABgTGIAEMgkIDRAAGBMYgAQyCQgOEAAYExiABNIBCDcxNzdqMGo0qAIBsAIB&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&chrome_dse_attribution=1

@ArcticBells and @nc007 That's horrific. I was reading an article about sugar water being used as pain relief for newborns and there's a whole heap of evidence to suggest that babies feeling pain can cause problems with neurodevelopment! And it's just horrible full stop, to hurt a baby like that. DS had to have some blood tests and he cried so much it made me cry.

Dunno why that quote is there. I agree with you though!

Yeah, I've never really bought the argument that it's better to strip the fused foreskin off your baby boy's penis with the various risks of pain and infection while it heals, than just...give it a wash.

If your child has an issue with persistent balanitis or an over-tight foreskin and can't resolve these with antibiotics or steroid cream, then sure - surgery is an obvious option. Easier at that stage because the foreskin won't still be fused and the child is likely continent. However, again it seems overkill to make the assumption that your child will suffer (vast majority don't, hence all those men kicking about Europe with perfectly healthy penises) and just prise off the foreskin (guaranteed pain/infection risk/wound care rather than a small possibility) as a newborn just in case.

Hang on, is pain relief not used for this in some mainstream hospitals? That's barbaric. How has this been allowed for so long?

The map above says a lot about the areas and religions where it is common. They can do whatever they want in their country of origin, as they are fully entitled to do, but it should not happen here in the UK. When you move here, you should conform to our norms. We're really not doing a good job on social integration.

Why do you say that it has no issues! What evidence do you have.

I have evidence to the contrary.

It most definitely does cause appalling consequences regarding sexual disfunction and pain during sex if the circumcision is at the most complete stage. Quite awful.

A life altered and absolutely not for the better. No sexual pleasure at all, and the man in question was a few days old before mother handed him over to be mutilated.

@AliasGrace47 I'm a lesbian myself...

I don't think that's an excuse for having limited knowledge of male anatomy.

People are expected to have common knowledge of the world and life in general, including things that don't directly impact them.

It did sound odd, esp as there's a reason for body parts to be present. Appendix, for instance. Or even public hair. There can be valid reasons to change, but most of the time the body should be let be.

Show us your evidence that there are "common lifelong problems" from male circumcision.

And, as noted above, the WHO recommends voluntary male circumcision in Africa. https://www.who.int/teams/global-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-programmes/hiv/prevention/voluntary-medical-male-circumcision

Yes, it makes me feel a bit queasy when people seem to be saying that if FGM wasn't so radical it would be...fine? So if they just cut off the hood of the clitoris it would be ok?

Of course not! Children shouldn't have their genitals messed with to any degree without clear medical benefit to them, not to god, not to their marriage prospects, not to keep granny happy, not to make it easier to wash, after all other avenues have been exhausted.

I believe so, just seen two HCPs say they've seen it done with no anesthetic. Even blood draws and cannula insertions have pain relief, DS had sugar water for those when he was tiny.

What WHO actually say is: "VMMC should be supported as a key HIV prevention option, within combination prevention for adolescents 15 years and older and adult men in settings with generalized HIV epidemics."

Not babies, not toddlers, not primary school age boys. Not in Europe, not in North America, not in places in the African continent that's don't have a generalised HIV epidemic.

Seems to me that is this wasn’t culturally accepted in many places and someone suggested you chop your newborn babies foreskin off they’d be arrested. It’s madness and the only reason people don’t get locked up is because it’s culturally acceptable. By any objective measure it’s abuse, surely? Have I missed something?

hiv in uk
https://nat.org.uk/about-hiv/hiv-statistics/

I disagree. Most issues I'm involved in don't involve male anatomy, (or female for that matter). This one does, so if I were involved in some action, eg a petition, I would research before doing anything, as I've done. Similarly, I wouldn't expect gay men to know about female anatomy, unless they were involved in an issue like maternity care, dangers of vaginally surgery etc. This doesn't apply to me, but some gay & lesbian people find fundamentally unpleasant to think about the opposite sex's genitals. I think tho certainly anyone possible needs to become aware of these issues, pain and suffering are everyone's concern.

Are you having a laugh! FGM is a complete mutilation of a girl’s genital area involving removal of her clitoris and often resulting in fistulae. Sometimes the girl’s vagina will be stitched over, only to be ripped open again forcefully during sex. Other effects include infection, scarring, chronic long term genital infections, obstetric problems, urination problems and even death from sepsis. Obstruction of the vaginal opening may lead to painful menstruation (dysmenorrhea), irregular periods and difficulty in passing menstrual blood. The girl is unlikely to ever go on and have a pleasant sexual experience following FGM.

Male circumcision had fewer less severe complications and may be carried out for medical reasons in NHS hospitals. There are NO medical reasons for female circumcision.

The two are really NOT comparable.

YANBU OP.

It's barbaric and should have no place whatsoever in this century.

If male circumcision is such a terrible thing it's surprising that more men aren't up in arms about it.

Unbelievable. This needs to be spoken out on, I wonder if there's anything on Change.org?

Yes, but surely they wouldn't be recommending it if it commonly caused lifelong problems, which is the statement I was responding to.

Not that I approve of it for babies or little boys - I think it’s ridiculous- but I don’t think it should be automatically lumped together with FGM as the probabilities of complications are so different.

My DS was circumcised for medical reasons when he was ten years old. It was a long, painful recovery and all I could think was how can anyone subject babies to this for no need.

My take away from the thread so far is that anyone here saying it's fine doesn't believe in consent??
I've seen people on her appalled at a baby even getting their ears pierced but theres actually a higher amount defending mutilating a babies body with no consent

In the WHO classification of types of FGM the least extreme is described thus:
“This is the partial or total removal of the clitoral glans (the external and visible part of the clitoris, which is a sensitive part of the female genitals), and/or the prepuce/clitoral hood (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoral glans).”

Removal of clitoris.

Horrific and extreme. IMO.

I am totally against circumcision for non medical reasons. To me it is ethically and morally wrong to cut bits off kids bodies without their consent.

We don’t need to make circumcision of boys comparative to FGM to decide whether or not it is wrong. It either is or isn’t, on its own terms.

As it happens I think the misogyny and the fear of women’s sexual pleasure as a threat to patriarchy and men’s power is a different dynamic to male circumcision, which seems to be about offering a covenant to your god and making your son a valuable powerful male member of your tribe.

But, irrespective of all this, cutting bits off babies or non/consenting (under the gf if consent ) children is wrong.

It depends. Not all FGM is the Type Three that you seem to be thinking of. Some "just" cut off the clitoral hood protecting some "just" cut off the labia. I'm no more OK with that and I do wonder if they are more comparable to circumcision of the foreskin.

According to the NHS, "Apart from the initial swelling, bleeding and infection are the 2 most common problems associated with circumcision. Other possible complications of circumcision can include:

- permanent reduction in sensation in the head of the penis, particularly during sex
- tenderness around the scar[...]" so I'd say it might be relatively level pegging there.