Circumcision should be banned.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/01/judge-and-parents-call-for-boys-to-be-protected-from-circumcision

Article describes an upsetting case of two doctors performing these ops without anesthesia, and with sometimes serious side effects. One boy nearly died.

The National Secular Society is running a concurrent campaign to ban all 'religious cutting' - that includes both FGM and male circumcision. I wholeheartedly agree that no baby or child should suffer in this way. More info:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-surgery/

YABU - circumcision for religous reasons is fine
YANBU - circumcision should be banned (unless there is a medical reason)

As a parent you are meant to care and protect your child, not abuse them.

Thanks for that helpful tip. I'll pass it on to the Jewish, Muslim and African parents I know. Perhaps you could do so as well - maybe stop members of these communities in the street and let them know your views...

I will thanks for the suggestion. I’m guessing by your response you’ve abused and mutilated your child? @samG76

Doesn't stop them being abusive just cos they're doing it in the name of some imaginary figure in the sky.

Why are you so disrespectful?
I don't agree with, but am able to do so in a more adult, less offensive way.

My feelings entirely, Spunky Culture. It's perfectly reasonable in my view to say that you don't believe in circumcision. Quite another to say that 20% of UK parents are thoughtless child abusers. Jewish children in the UK seem to do okay in life generally, according to most surveys, ditto West Africans, so their parents are probably doing something right.

I have no doubts they are doing somethings right. It's just abusing their children by mutilating them isn't one of them.

• some things

I think this is a problematic view when it's possible to be an otherwise 'good' parent (especially on the surface) yet be abusive in a certain respect, even if it's just the one way.

My pretty thick-skinned and open-minded cousin witnessed a circumcision as part of a religious ceremony and said it was traumatising. That was the word he used.

My husband is Muslim and circumcised. He thinks it's unclean not to be and is glad he is - but of course it is all he has ever known so he probably would say that as his was straightforward as far as he's aware. We compromised and said any sons we had could make that decision themselves as older teenagers. (We never decided on an exact age as we never had sons but I think perhaps 16 as I would have said 18 and I imagine he'd have said 14.) It was actually something we discussed when we had only been together about a year as it would have been a dealbreaker for me in terms of agreeing to marry him (and have a family with him, which we both wanted) if he insisted on an infant or young child being circumcised.

It's entirely reasonable to think that ALL children - regardless of their parent's outdated beliefs - should be protected from unnecessary harm by law.

The tenets of all religions are there to keep the rabbis, priests, imams etc in a job and maintain their 'power base'

Whether it's the line 'masturbation is a sin' and the mental harm that causes or mutilating babies and the physical harm that causes there is no justification possible.

So much evil happens unfortunately because people claim a God of some type told them to do it

YANBU. I don't actually know anyone who'd argue otherwise IRL. When my son was born not a single medical professional even mentioned the idea. I wouldn't have known where to take him to have him painfully mutilated even if I'd wanted to.

There is no excuse for this barbarism. It weakens the argument against female genital mutilation when people are all for male babies being attacked and female children not. It breaks my heart. Really makes me question the morals and capacity to parent and protect and safeguard the child when a parent thinks that's acceptable.

Either it's laid down in law that a person has the right to not have their body cut and mutilated without their consent- and yes I'd include ear piercing in that, no matter how old they are, or it isn't. I don't think for a moment that circumcision will ever be banned, but it should be. Every person should have the right to their bodily integrity.

Ive been thinking about this quite a bit while considering ear piercing, and cosmetic procedures such as ear pinning and I think you and your husband reached a good compromise.

We understand children to be Gillick competent in some circumstances (certainly not as newborns or toddlers) so we already have a framework to allow children to make choices about procedures carried out in their bodies.

My son is on a waiting list to have a procedure on a permanently perforated eardrum and the consultant was very clear that it was his choice to go ahead or not and that if he changed his mind at any point re: treatment, that was his right. He's 12.

So there could be a discussion re: at what age a male child becomes able to choose for himself to have his foreskin removed and to understand the pros and cons. That might be younger than 18.

I don't think the argument that it's better at birth because "they don't remember" outweighs the argument that the boy is having his choice to stay intact removed.

@ditalini my ex remembers his being done at birth! I don't think it is always the case that they forget. He is still traumatised. I realise this sounds a bit crazy, but he really does remember it. Poor thing.

It must have been horrifically traumatic. Is it really possible to remember things from when you're a newborn? I just googled & there are posts out there claiming they can, some saying it's related to early trauma. I take most w a linch of salt, but I can believe it's possible. Personally, I can remember being younger than 2, I can imagine someone having memories from earlier. There's a lot we still don't understand about the human brain.
I wonder if there are other men w that experience. It's a truly horrible thing to talk about, but if that were more publicised, it would be a key reason to ban.

Came across these studies w more negative effects of circumcision -
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844020324099

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364150/

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=55727

Yes it is possible! I absolutely believe him as well. And I would think something as traumatic as a circumcision would be one of those few things that one (if one were to remember anything from being a newborn) could remember.

Also let's bear in mind that even stuff we don't consciously remember can impact us subconsciously for our whole life. E.g a lot of people abused in childhood repress it consciously and don't remember but it comes out in behaviours and acting out in adulthood - in some instances they might suddenly have flashbacks and it all comes back to them. So much that we don't understand about trauma and how it is stored in the subconscious.

Because it's all bullshit. Look at the way people are with each other, all in the name of some phony person. Wars. Murder. Mutilation. All justified by religion.

Tellulah - thinking of all the issues caused by professed atheists (Nazis, Stalin, the Cultural Revolution, Pol Pot, etc) I think these dwarf what has been done in the name of religion....

Oh? Well crack on then! Mutilate your children as much as you like and then profess to never want to harm them! As long as you're not as bad as the Nazis were then anything goes! 👍🏻

110% agree it should be banned. I don’t believe that it can be justified for religious/cultural reasons- it’s just justifying an abusive practice rather than risking offending those who practice these beliefs. I’ve lost a close friend over this as they had their son circumcised but I think it’s absolutely abhorrent.

So if Atheists are capable of evil then its ok to mutliate children in the name of religion?
How about if people do evil in the name of religion (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Burning Catholics under Bloody Mary, 911 etc), what does that mean for mutilating children?
Does it justify it or not?

Azure - you seriously lost a close friend over this? So you filter out of your friendship group any practising Jews or Muslims or Africans? I think you need to get a grip and they are best rid of you.

I've been doing a bit of reading around religious obligations for circumcision and it is very hard if your religion obligates it.

For Muslims the timing seems very flexible and it doesn't have a scripturally mandated timing. Timing seems to be largely cultural or due to different interpretations by Islamic scholars, with it happening as late as the teens, so a ban on newborn circumcision wouldn't affect the religious obligations of Muslim parents absolutely.

For Orthodox/Conservative Jewish parents it's different. The 8 days after birth is written in scripture and is absolute. The only permitted exception appears to be if the health of the infant boy prevents it, and in those cases it should happen as soon as possible. So for those parents I can see how they would feel very attacked and under siege from any ban and would feel absolutely obligated to go ahead anyway.

There are Jewish denominations who take a more flexible approach, and there are some Jews who choose not to circumcise their newborn sons and have modified versions of the Bris which include celebrating a new member of the community regardless, so it's not absolutely clear cut - albeit most Jewish parents in those groups do still circumcise.

So it's very difficult. Balancing the right of a newborn baby to his bodily autonomy on one side, and actively demanding that a religious group go against one of the fundamental tenets of their faith on the other.

For that group "but it's always been done that way" is viscerally important to them, for everyone else it's less of an issue to say, well it's for your son to decide for himself when he can choose.

But Jewish babies can't have fewer rights than other babies - the risks to them are the same. So I don't know what you do, but it's hard so we do nothing isn't right either.