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Killer claims to be ill

1000 replies

Galatine · 23/01/2025 12:09

According to the BBC Axel Rudakubana is shouting in court that he is ill.
AIBU to say I couldn’t give a shit!

OP posts:
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5
Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:15

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:10

Emotionally, I agree with the "evil" assessment.

But rationally, I tend to want to see what the motive was. I know some disagree with that but at least having a motive will illuminate the why.

But that’s you thinking if we can find a reason we can stop it from happening again. Sometimes there is no motive beyond wanting to inflict fear, pain and death because that person is evil.

Bellyfullofbiscuits · 23/01/2025 18:16

Totallymessed · 23/01/2025 17:24

Don't be so silly.

Oh we are very very different. We would not go out and murder INNOCENT children out of the blue. He decided his own fate.

Viviennemary · 23/01/2025 18:16

BunnyLake · 23/01/2025 18:14

It cases like this, where there is 100% knowledge and evidence that he is the culprit, that I would support the death penalty. Only for these absolute surety cases that have no doubt.

I agree with the death penalty being applied in certain cases. But with this killer being under 18 it probably wouldn't apply even if this country did have the death penalty.

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:17

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:15

But that’s you thinking if we can find a reason we can stop it from happening again. Sometimes there is no motive beyond wanting to inflict fear, pain and death because that person is evil.

Yes, your first sentence is right. That is how I view it.

But even with acts of "evil" and extreme violence there is usually a motive.

prh47bridge · 23/01/2025 18:17

EasternStandard · 23/01/2025 17:08

@prh47bridge I thought the judge did an excellent job and I doubt the murderer will get out, but why wouldn't he do consecutive do you think?

Given that all the offences arose from a single incident, a concurrent sentence was always likely unless the judge felt that the only way to get to an adequate sentence was to make them consecutive. The judge clearly thinks that 52 years is adequate as a total. And it is difficult to make sentences consecutive when one of them is a life sentence, as in this case. It would have been life plus 49 years with a minimum of 52 years on the life sentence. What does that actually mean? How would the prison service be expected to interpret that? Finally, Schedule 21 of the Sentencing Act makes it clear that, where multiple murders are committed, parliament expects judges to pass a single sentence covering all the murders.

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:18

CaraMacs · 23/01/2025 18:01

I have not read the whole thread, sorry. I have worked as a consultant psychiatrist for many years and I don’t believe he has a mental illness as such. He most likely has a very disordered personality, with antisocial traits. In my view, he is more ‘bad’ than ‘mad’. If he had an illness like schizophrenia I’m sure that would have been put forward by his defence by now.

The problem with people who have severe antisocial personality disorder, is that treatment options are very limited. Medication has no real role, and any kind of therapy would require engagement and reflection from the individual. I doubt this person is capable of that.

It is very difficult to balance detention with liberty. The Mental Health Act allows detention of mentally unwell people but with safeguards. People can rightfully appeal their section and there is a high threshold for detention. There have been multiple calls for the MHA to be amended. Many want it to be more lenient for want of a better word. They feel the act is too restrictive. Mental health advocates are campaigning for a higher threshold to get people detained, thus making it harder in general to hold people against their will.

These reforms of the act were put on pause after the Nottingham killings. Because in that case there was a mentally unwell man who was able to kill others whilst sick and untreated. So it would have been v poor timing to reduce the powers of the act at that point.

It is very hard to get it right when on the one hand you want to lock up potentially dangerous people, whilst on the other hand people’s liberty needs protecting.

There was a move many years ago to try and manage people with what they called ‘dangerous and severe personality disorder’. This was after the Michael Stone killings. However, it became apparent that this had not been thought through properly. This was not a medical diagnosis. Where would these people be managed, in hospitals, in jail? And what kind of treatment would this involve anyway? When would they be safe to be released? Liberty groups campaigned to say that it was an infringement of rights to lock people up when they had not actually committed a crime.

I am not sure mental health services could have made much difference in this case. I think a more robust reaction by criminal justice services to the crimes he committed as a teenager was needed. The hope would then be that in custodial detention, he could have some kind of rehabilitation work before his full personality was established as an adult.

I think there are some very dangerous individuals around, and I don’t think we have the answers how to manage them. Especially if they don’t have a treatable mental illness or have committed a significant crime. The period before they have actually committed a serious crime is the most dangerous.

It is all unbelievably tragic. I can’t fully hold any one institution responsible because we don’t have the mechanisms to deal with these situations. And the parents may have been absolutely terrified of him. We don’t exactly know what their role was in all this.

I would be wary of putting this down to a treatable mental illness or ASD etc. Some people just are ‘evil’. We are not meant to say that in MH services but I believe they are.

Thank you for your very clear explanation

KittenPause · 23/01/2025 18:19

The parents were out of their depth desperately knowing their son was capable of such horrors but with no way of stopping it

Because he hadn't yet committed such a crime other than threats then no one did anything to stop somthing like this from happening

The parents tried by the sounds of it but their hands were tied.

Imagine living with a son like Axel knowing the worst can and will happen but no one will help you prevent it

Totallymessed · 23/01/2025 18:19

Tittat50 · 23/01/2025 17:56

My definition of 'ill' might fall out of defined mental illnesses within the DSM ( think that's the right manual).

People can be very evil. Something stops most of us from ever being able to do this. We have the capacity to tap into a part of ourselves, empathy,and not stab kids to death.

The defined mental illnesses we have are not sufficient to cover off all anomalies. I understand psychopathy is not a mental illness for example. Not is sociopathy. I would call many psychopaths very ill.

I'm going to go back and research the Dahmer case. I think there is still conflicting professionals opinion regards defined mental illnesses even in his case. That guy was off his nut which ever way you look at it.

Most people cannot just do what this kid did.

I mean I agree, obviously this person's behaviour was at the extreme of deliberate, sadistic brutality. But I think just defining any crime that we find disturbing and impossible to comprehend as meaning that the offender must be ill, as understandable but simply avoiding facing the fact that sane human beings can occasionally do the most hideous, atrocious things.

I also think it's deeply offensive to people who do suffer from mental illnesses.

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:19

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:17

Yes, your first sentence is right. That is how I view it.

But even with acts of "evil" and extreme violence there is usually a motive.

But I think some peoples motive is literally to create pain and cause death.

Vinvertebrate · 23/01/2025 18:19

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 23/01/2025 18:02

No they wouldn’t have needed to as he pled guilty.

Wrong. I am talking about the defence KC’s comments made in mitigation today at the sentencing hearing.

Stan Reiz KC, defending, told the court: “For offences of such wickedness, the mitigation that I can meaningfully advance on behalf of the defendant is limited.”
Reiz said: “There is no psychiatric evidence before the court that could suggest that a mental disorder contributed to the defendant’s actions.

ByGreenBiscuit · 23/01/2025 18:20

zerogrey · 23/01/2025 12:55

What gets me is that his obsession with violence was RIGHT FUCKING THERE, and it wasn't enough for people to act. His parents could have done something, but no. Now three girls are dead.

His father is a black belt in karate for god's sake. Why on earth he didnt put his foot down and do something to stop his son is beyond me, and no I don't mean kick the shit out of him.

Agree with this. He lived with his parents and was constantly researching murder with knives under his bed. What the fuck were they doing?

if this were my son I think I would have handed him over to the authorities myself after a snoop in his internet history. It’s obvious he’s completely unhinged.

Renovationhell · 23/01/2025 18:21

This case has made me feel physically sick.

It’s even more scary that it will no doubt happen again and there’s not much that can be done about it.

TinklySnail · 23/01/2025 18:22

oakleaffy · 23/01/2025 18:00

There is a massive spectrum of mental illness, but even people with serious mental illness tend to hurt themselves rather than other people.

There are probably people who are just born bad- Who even as young children show cruelty to animals and children younger than them.

People without empathy or a conscience- who do dreadful crimes.

Hitler and others come to mind.

Even in the trenches of WW1 his fellow soldiers thought he was strange.

No one can deny that here are mentally ill people who kill. It happens and unless mental health services improve it will only get worse.
The fact there were so many agencies involved but he still went on to kill is worrying to say the least. I assume that’s why there will be an enquiry.
Hitler didn’t like the fall on the Reich and blamed Jewish people. Twat that he was.
Who knows why he targeted those girls. All we do know is that mums and dads lost their babies and nothing will compensate for their loss.
Something must have happened but as you say, many people with mental health issues would rather hurt or kill themselves than another human being. I hope people recognise this and understand that just because you suffer with a mental disorder, doesn’t mean you’re going to hurt anyone but yourself.

User32459 · 23/01/2025 18:22

RandomButtons · 23/01/2025 13:13

You’re summing up why the extreme right has gained so much speed in America. What a stupid thing to wish for.

No, they should be punished.

I'm sick of all the human rights for violent criminals.

You forfeit the right to human rights when you commit murder in cold blood

echt · 23/01/2025 18:22

BunnyLake · 23/01/2025 18:14

It cases like this, where there is 100% knowledge and evidence that he is the culprit, that I would support the death penalty. Only for these absolute surety cases that have no doubt.

There was “no doubt” that Timothy Evan’s murdered his wife and baby daughter.

Viviennemary · 23/01/2025 18:23

ByGreenBiscuit · 23/01/2025 18:20

Agree with this. He lived with his parents and was constantly researching murder with knives under his bed. What the fuck were they doing?

if this were my son I think I would have handed him over to the authorities myself after a snoop in his internet history. It’s obvious he’s completely unhinged.

The authorities were aware of the threat from him.AFAIK.

ByGreenBiscuit · 23/01/2025 18:23

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:19

But I think some peoples motive is literally to create pain and cause death.

I don’t agree that everyone who commits evil acts can be deemed ‘mentally ill’, if by mentally ill we mean they have a curable condition and could be fixed somehow to be upstanding members of society.

it’s a complex of life experience and genetics that shape us, and some of us end up more vengeful, angry and bitter than others. This man is an example of the extreme of that, I still think he’s 100% responsible for these actions and is lacking something intrinsic that sits in most of us - or has decided to ignore his - a respect for life and moral compass.

I hope he rots, burns or bleeds to death tbh. No punishment can be enough. And I don’t believe on wasting state resources on him now he’s in prison anyway. Just help those in society and putting others at risk.

EasternStandard · 23/01/2025 18:24

Stan Reiz KC, defending, told the court: “For offences of such wickedness, the mitigation that I can meaningfully advance on behalf of the defendant is limited.”
Reiz said: “There is no psychiatric evidence before the court that could suggest that a mental disorder contributed to the defendant’s actions.*

Thanks for this @Vinvertebrate I keep seeing posts from pp pushing thel mental disorder line

MaggieMistletoe · 23/01/2025 18:24

His parents should be deported back to Rwanda. The genocide they claimed to be fleeing from was over years and years ago. No doubt they are being protected via the taxpayer though.

ByGreenBiscuit · 23/01/2025 18:25

User32459 · 23/01/2025 18:22

No, they should be punished.

I'm sick of all the human rights for violent criminals.

You forfeit the right to human rights when you commit murder in cold blood

Edited

100% agreed. And I’m a bleeding heart liberal by most people’s standards!

SidekickSylvia · 23/01/2025 18:25

OonaStubbs · 23/01/2025 18:07

Japan is a civilised country that does not have the death penalty. They also have a lot less crime than we do.

Japan is a homogeneous country, which is generally more successful altogether. They need to improve their birth rate though.

MaggieMistletoe · 23/01/2025 18:25

echt · 23/01/2025 18:22

There was “no doubt” that Timothy Evan’s murdered his wife and baby daughter.

There was not an entire room full of witnesses.

ArtTheClown · 23/01/2025 18:25

We really do share the world with monsters. I hope he is never released.

User32459 · 23/01/2025 18:25

sky1267 · 23/01/2025 13:32

‘Care in the community’ now means dangerous lunatics are roaming the streets.

that being said he has no diagnosed mental health issues except autism? He is bad, not mad in my opinion

We need mental asylums for people who are considered a clear danger to the public. Even half the prison population should be in a mental health facility rather than prison.

How many more people need to die? Dangerous people should not be free to roam the streets.

ByGreenBiscuit · 23/01/2025 18:28

TinklySnail · 23/01/2025 18:22

No one can deny that here are mentally ill people who kill. It happens and unless mental health services improve it will only get worse.
The fact there were so many agencies involved but he still went on to kill is worrying to say the least. I assume that’s why there will be an enquiry.
Hitler didn’t like the fall on the Reich and blamed Jewish people. Twat that he was.
Who knows why he targeted those girls. All we do know is that mums and dads lost their babies and nothing will compensate for their loss.
Something must have happened but as you say, many people with mental health issues would rather hurt or kill themselves than another human being. I hope people recognise this and understand that just because you suffer with a mental disorder, doesn’t mean you’re going to hurt anyone but yourself.

I agree that mental health services have declined but I also think there’s a limit to what they can do. When someone has this potential evil in them, I don’t think it’s the states responsibility or within its power to fix that. I’m sure he was racially bullied and had a hard time of it at school, but don’t many people? Usually it resulfs in poor self esteem, self harm, the usual. He is just warped.

and I really think this shows the danger or having so much violent content available to us every day. It inspires evil and scares the shit out of the rest of us. I really think the internet has made this all worse.

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