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Killer claims to be ill

1000 replies

Galatine · 23/01/2025 12:09

According to the BBC Axel Rudakubana is shouting in court that he is ill.
AIBU to say I couldn’t give a shit!

OP posts:
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5
Nospringchix · 23/01/2025 18:01

BreatheAndFocus · 23/01/2025 12:57

No. They used a feeding tube on Brady.

Yes, I think they did use a tube on Ian Brady, however he was in a secure hospital. I don't think they can do that in prison, they definitely can't forcibly medicate someone in prison so probably can't force feed either.
He would probably need to transfer to a special hospital to do that... oh wait, that's probably what he wants and may be why he has stopped eating.

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:01

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 17:55

We haven't had a statement saying that he has been assessed, I don't think. Most assessments have to have some level of engagement and maybe the assessor (presumably psychiatrist) did not feel able to carry out an assessment if non-engaging?

I think it would be useful to know if he has had an attempted assessment and if it was abandoned.

I’m assuming that sentencing would have been delayed for psychiatric assessments if that were the case. I know people hate to think it, but some people are simply evil

CaraMacs · 23/01/2025 18:01

I have not read the whole thread, sorry. I have worked as a consultant psychiatrist for many years and I don’t believe he has a mental illness as such. He most likely has a very disordered personality, with antisocial traits. In my view, he is more ‘bad’ than ‘mad’. If he had an illness like schizophrenia I’m sure that would have been put forward by his defence by now.

The problem with people who have severe antisocial personality disorder, is that treatment options are very limited. Medication has no real role, and any kind of therapy would require engagement and reflection from the individual. I doubt this person is capable of that.

It is very difficult to balance detention with liberty. The Mental Health Act allows detention of mentally unwell people but with safeguards. People can rightfully appeal their section and there is a high threshold for detention. There have been multiple calls for the MHA to be amended. Many want it to be more lenient for want of a better word. They feel the act is too restrictive. Mental health advocates are campaigning for a higher threshold to get people detained, thus making it harder in general to hold people against their will.

These reforms of the act were put on pause after the Nottingham killings. Because in that case there was a mentally unwell man who was able to kill others whilst sick and untreated. So it would have been v poor timing to reduce the powers of the act at that point.

It is very hard to get it right when on the one hand you want to lock up potentially dangerous people, whilst on the other hand people’s liberty needs protecting.

There was a move many years ago to try and manage people with what they called ‘dangerous and severe personality disorder’. This was after the Michael Stone killings. However, it became apparent that this had not been thought through properly. This was not a medical diagnosis. Where would these people be managed, in hospitals, in jail? And what kind of treatment would this involve anyway? When would they be safe to be released? Liberty groups campaigned to say that it was an infringement of rights to lock people up when they had not actually committed a crime.

I am not sure mental health services could have made much difference in this case. I think a more robust reaction by criminal justice services to the crimes he committed as a teenager was needed. The hope would then be that in custodial detention, he could have some kind of rehabilitation work before his full personality was established as an adult.

I think there are some very dangerous individuals around, and I don’t think we have the answers how to manage them. Especially if they don’t have a treatable mental illness or have committed a significant crime. The period before they have actually committed a serious crime is the most dangerous.

It is all unbelievably tragic. I can’t fully hold any one institution responsible because we don’t have the mechanisms to deal with these situations. And the parents may have been absolutely terrified of him. We don’t exactly know what their role was in all this.

I would be wary of putting this down to a treatable mental illness or ASD etc. Some people just are ‘evil’. We are not meant to say that in MH services but I believe they are.

Sneezeless · 23/01/2025 18:02

He will be permanently unwell when the lags get hold of him.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 23/01/2025 18:02

Vinvertebrate · 23/01/2025 17:52

Absolutely this. The only meaningful mitigation in these horrific cases is psychiatric illness. The defence barrister would have explored every possible diagnosis with experts. The fact that nothing was found, no psychiatric report submitted in evidence - and in fact, R’s KC admitted he had “very little” to plead in mitigation - tells us all we need to know about this freakshow.

No they wouldn’t have needed to as he pled guilty.

FOJN · 23/01/2025 18:03

I've just seen 52 years minimum. I'm so relieved that the sentence is such a long one given that he couldn't officially be given a whole life tariff. Hopefully he will never be released.

Tittat50 · 23/01/2025 18:04

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:01

I’m assuming that sentencing would have been delayed for psychiatric assessments if that were the case. I know people hate to think it, but some people are simply evil

When we bring up additional factors it's not because we are excusing or wanting to let him off the hook. The kid is scary and it's not a life worth living probably from his own perspective.

People are certainly evil. I believe there were signs from a very young age. He was accessing SEN school support from what I understand.

I have to go look back at latest info as I haven't read new reports since the guff about buying knives yesterday.

MaggieMistletoe · 23/01/2025 18:04

Reading about this horrific individual and seeing his evil, inhuman, soulless face is enough to make you wonder if all the bible stuff about demon-possession is true.

Anyone ever read 'how green was my valley?' At one point there is a man who rapes and kills a little girl. He is hunted down by all the men of the village and handed over to the father and elder brothers of the victim so they can kill him on the same spot that he commited his atrocities. To my mind, it is the modern world that is the more uncivilised.

Our society does not protect our children, they are more at risk from monsters than they have ever been.. because there is no real deterrent. The rights of killers, rapists and paedophiles are valued over the safety of children, its been like that for a few decades now. It's another contributing factor to Reforms likely success next election, people are getting desperate to feel safer.

Mirabai · 23/01/2025 18:04

Totallymessed · 23/01/2025 17:47

He will have been very thoroughly assessed by multiple psychiatrists while in custody, including psychiatrists chosen by his defence team. There has been zero evidence given by the defence that he is ill, let alone "very, very ill".

Sane people can do hideous, sadistic things.

Well, there’s no evidence for diminished responsibility - eg psychotic episode - or he wouldn’t be pleading guilty, and there’s no evidence he’s well not to appear in court, but that does not mean he’s wholly mentally well.

fashionqueen0123 · 23/01/2025 18:06

Tittat50 · 23/01/2025 17:56

My definition of 'ill' might fall out of defined mental illnesses within the DSM ( think that's the right manual).

People can be very evil. Something stops most of us from ever being able to do this. We have the capacity to tap into a part of ourselves, empathy,and not stab kids to death.

The defined mental illnesses we have are not sufficient to cover off all anomalies. I understand psychopathy is not a mental illness for example. Not is sociopathy. I would call many psychopaths very ill.

I'm going to go back and research the Dahmer case. I think there is still conflicting professionals opinion regards defined mental illnesses even in his case. That guy was off his nut which ever way you look at it.

Most people cannot just do what this kid did.

What do they define things like that if not mental illness?!

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:07

EasternStandard · 23/01/2025 17:59

The judge said the ND wasn't a factor

People need to stop leaning on something that hasn't been confirmed. There's no psych report

I thought the judge stated that he had ND but did not have any learning difficulties. I don't recall him saying that it wasn't a factor.

But I had one eye and ear on the live reporting as I tried to work so could have missed it.

OonaStubbs · 23/01/2025 18:07

dynamiccactus · 23/01/2025 17:32

In a civilised country, you don't have the death penalty.

But I have to say I think this individual is an exception (there are others - the Moors Murderers, Robert Black, Wayne Couzens).

I agree it will cost thousands to keep him in jail, and I also feel sorry for the prison staff who have to deal with him.

Edited

Japan is a civilised country that does not have the death penalty. They also have a lot less crime than we do.

JessiesJ99 · 23/01/2025 18:07

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 17:58

No I’m not concerned about that. I have ptsd and don’t go round murdering people. What I’m concerned about is the misogyny embedded in many asylum seekers because they’ve come from countries where women are viewed as and treated as shit. That’s the issue - not some poor little murderer having unresolved trauma. We need to start rejecting asylum claims if there is a suspicion that their values don’t match British values and assist them to claim asylum elsewhere that might offer more value alignment. We need to look at deporting those who don’t become aligned to the British way of life. Many immigrants do this with no issues we need to draw a line in the sand and demand certain behaviours of all our residents

Agree with you 100%.

But the reality is people are here, and they keep coming. I don't think we can underestimate what living through genocide and war could do to a person.

We know that unresolved trauma can lead to a breakdown in mental health. I'm in no way making excuses, but I think we need to face reality.

It's unrealistic to think people who have lived through unspeakable things can just come here & fit right in, with no issues whatsoever.

Another2Cats · 23/01/2025 18:08

MeridianB · 23/01/2025 16:49

Can anyone explain to me why we don't have consecutive sentences for multiple crimes in this country? I only ever hear of concurrent. In this case, with the 52 years, the entirety is more meaningful but in other cases it seems to diminish the justice - eg 15 years for three deaths.

Also, I'd like to see the justice system add time onto to sentences for criminals who refuse to come into court to be sentenced. Reports say this one initially refused to appear this morning. It shows utter contempt and I don't understand how it can even happen. But if criminals cannot be forced to the stand then they should at least be punished.

There is a concept called "sentencing totality". Basically, judges don't just tot up all the offences and then add up all the individual sentences as this could well mean that people spend an excessive amount of time in prison.

So judges tend to arrive at an overall figure in their head that they think is appropriate and then they structure the sentencing to achieve that aim.

In this case, the judge had obviously decided that 52 years was the appropriate minimum sentence and he just decided to give that for each of the murders.

For context, the starting point for a 17 year old that commits murder is 12 years. The fact that he got 52 years shows how serious the judge thought the offences were. I believe in the sentencing remarks he also said that if he had been over 18 then he would have got a whole of life sentence.

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:08

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 17:41

I think we need a sensible discussion on the mental health element in this case. Of course not everyone with MH is a potential violent criminal but in terms of extreme violence and the neurodiversity, there does seem to be a mix that potentially made his worldview abnormal.

And yes, the majority of MH or ND are not violent - hence understanding why it happened here is important.

Ignoring it or denying it could mean fewer funds going to needed services such as CAMHS.

The trouble is people then view “mental health as an excuse. Suddenly someone is not responsible. They become a victim. Maybe we just need to understand some people are simply evil.

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:10

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:01

I’m assuming that sentencing would have been delayed for psychiatric assessments if that were the case. I know people hate to think it, but some people are simply evil

Emotionally, I agree with the "evil" assessment.

But rationally, I tend to want to see what the motive was. I know some disagree with that but at least having a motive will illuminate the why.

oakleaffy · 23/01/2025 18:11

@CaraMacs Thank you for making these points- Very interesting.

wastingtimeonhere · 23/01/2025 18:11

Those saying his dad should be held culpable, it's nigh on impossible to get help for relatives. All relevant authorities knew about this young man, but all did nothing.
I actually feel for perpetrators' families, looking at your 3 yr old playing Thomas The Tank nobody thinks...'Wow, he will make a great murderer.' We all have hopes and dreams for our kids.

Inastatus · 23/01/2025 18:12

MaggieMistletoe · 23/01/2025 18:04

Reading about this horrific individual and seeing his evil, inhuman, soulless face is enough to make you wonder if all the bible stuff about demon-possession is true.

Anyone ever read 'how green was my valley?' At one point there is a man who rapes and kills a little girl. He is hunted down by all the men of the village and handed over to the father and elder brothers of the victim so they can kill him on the same spot that he commited his atrocities. To my mind, it is the modern world that is the more uncivilised.

Our society does not protect our children, they are more at risk from monsters than they have ever been.. because there is no real deterrent. The rights of killers, rapists and paedophiles are valued over the safety of children, its been like that for a few decades now. It's another contributing factor to Reforms likely success next election, people are getting desperate to feel safer.

@MaggieMistletoe - he certainly looks possessed! The photo of him they keep showing gives me chills.

Another2Cats · 23/01/2025 18:12

EasternStandard · 23/01/2025 17:08

@prh47bridge I thought the judge did an excellent job and I doubt the murderer will get out, but why wouldn't he do consecutive do you think?

Normally, when sentencing for different offences that took place at the same time then concurrent sentences are given.

Judges also have to think about "sentencing totality" - in other words, what is an appropriate sentence overall given the offences that the person has been convicted of.

The starting point for sentencing a 17 year old who has committed murder is 12 years. So giving him 52 years on each count shows what the judge thought.

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:12

JessiesJ99 · 23/01/2025 18:07

Agree with you 100%.

But the reality is people are here, and they keep coming. I don't think we can underestimate what living through genocide and war could do to a person.

We know that unresolved trauma can lead to a breakdown in mental health. I'm in no way making excuses, but I think we need to face reality.

It's unrealistic to think people who have lived through unspeakable things can just come here & fit right in, with no issues whatsoever.

We need to then make a plan to make sure these people don’t stay if they could be a threat to the safety of our country. Many mental health issues can’t be fully resolved - ever. We can’t even look after our own citizens who have been left traumatised in such areas..we simply will never have capacity to sort these people out. We have limited resources.

cocoloco23 · 23/01/2025 18:12

SquirrelSoShiny · 23/01/2025 12:38

Everything about this case is horrendous, not least the fact that austerity meant that mental health services have been decimated. Imagine if he had actually been treated (and if necessary detained) before he became the man on the news.

The sad truth is this could have been prevented but the swing towards 'care' in the community has gone way too far. Leaving a very mentally ill young man in his bedroom on the internet for years doesn't count as 'care' by any stretch. The law needs to change in so many ways. There are so many young men like this in Britain and they are ticking time bombs.

I remember a man being stabbed on a bus by a mentally ill person. This was a long time ago - maybe the mid 90s? - and there was a big outcry in the papers and on the news about the lack of support for people with mental illnesses. Now it’s almost accepted - not in a “I don’t care” way, but in a “this is how things are” way.

I expect the Southport killer IS mentally unwell - surely no one sane does what he did. Saw the faces of those little girls all over the news today and thought about how much their families must have suffered, and will continue to suffer.

YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 23/01/2025 18:13

Feelingathomenow · 23/01/2025 18:08

The trouble is people then view “mental health as an excuse. Suddenly someone is not responsible. They become a victim. Maybe we just need to understand some people are simply evil.

Mental health is not an excuse. It can be an explanation. It may lie alongside other comorbid issues.
I don't think that makes a perpetrator of horrific crimes a victim. Just maybe some way of understanding why they committed the evil acts.

Tittat50 · 23/01/2025 18:14

fashionqueen0123 · 23/01/2025 18:06

What do they define things like that if not mental illness?!

Another poster just gave a great explanation. There are disordered personality types such as psychopathy. That is not a defined mental illness believe it or not. It would be defined as a disordered personality type is my understanding.

If you look at Dahmer and what he did. Completely deranged with a complete absence of empathy that would be suggestive of psychopathy. What treatment is there for that? I don't think there is one!

Might it be useful to know. I'd say it would.

Does psychopathy fall under insane in some cases? I have no idea how they determine that. But we know in the case of say Dahmer the default typical human cannot do what he did. That's more than just being evil.

I think the guy needs to be removed permanently from society and never returned. It's interesting for us to understand what went on here.

BunnyLake · 23/01/2025 18:14

It cases like this, where there is 100% knowledge and evidence that he is the culprit, that I would support the death penalty. Only for these absolute surety cases that have no doubt.

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