To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

What even is trans masculine? Because unless you are a biological woman and you are gate crashing women's sports then you are a cheat and absolute a threat to women's events.

Thats not anti trans it's pro women and I'm sick to the back fucking teeth of the lazy argument otherwise

Can you give examples of the awful comments? Death and rape threats? that sort of thing?

This with all the bells on

Not anti trans, but do not believe trans women are women and so reluctant to accept them in women only spaces. No issues with trans men, but don't fancy dating one ( also don't fancy dating a gay woman, but not anti lesbian either)

I'm not anti trans, I do have a lot of sympathy and compassion for them.
I will call a person any name they choose and use any pronouns they prefer, I don't care how anyone dresses and I believe everyone has the right to live their lives without harassment and abuse.
However I do object to "trans rights" taking away from women's rights, such as the availability of safe women only spaces and trans women in women's sports. Even the right to be called a woman or a mother (not a "person with an uterus" or a "birthing parent"). I also think we need to be able to have a sensible discussion around these issues without being labelled transphobic.

I don't think this will last I'm afraid. People's actual opinions are those represented on anonymous forums where free speech is allowed. So mumsnet and Twitter. People may well be currently pretending to their face because of fear. This is changing though.

It's complicated isn't it. I support womens rights and contribute to what I think are quite important legal challenges to try to sort out the mess of the last few years, where almost religious ideas have been imposed on women, and where children are being harmed. I put my money and time into supporting the considered efforts of brave women to tackle these social problems.

At the same time, I'm unhappy about the way people often talk about trans people on here and I stopped participating in that forum years ago because of it. There is a type of visceral disgust expressed that worries me; I don't want to be part of shaming people for just looking weird. I don't mind weird. I'm weird myself.

I know several trans people well and I value them deeply. I don't share their beliefs about gender, just as I don't share my Muslim friends' beliefs, but they are wonderful people and I feel sure we can find a way to accommodate each other in the public sphere. I don't think trans people are all sexual predators or child abusers. I think that any sacred caste is a lure for such people, and trans is no different. Sacred castes are dangerous, fair criticism is important, and finding a way for all people to take up a full and fair place in civil society, so criticism can be fair, is important.

In a pluralistic society we have struggled with similar questions and competing ideas in the past and found a way through. I know we can do it. But it's complicated.

What parts are hateful, women saying no?

It’s just more nonsense made up verbal contortionism to create an identity because people have either run out of things they can feel ‘victimised’ about, or they don’t have real world problems.

Trans masculine? What next.

Exactly. And on reddit you get the incels.. so some posters here feel it's best to agree with the incels then... ?

The thing is, use of terms like "invaded" rather belies your first sentence. If you're not anti-trans at all, why would you talk of trans people invading, say, a Ladies' toilet rather than just using it?

Agree on the poster who said are polite. That does not mean they are personally supportive of transgender ideologies.

I think a lot of parents, particularly if they have girls, have concerns. It seems to undermine a lot of progress for girls, their support, facilities for women and biological sex.

I doubt people are actively hostile. They are probably tolerant.

“ their existence has very little to no impact on other people”

Except for the school girls who can’t object to adolescent boys using their toilets and changing rooms without the risk of being called bigots.

Except for the women in hospital who have to share wards with bearded men

Except for the nurses who have to strip off in front of men because their hospital trust say they are women too.

Except for the women, including office workers, academics, journalists, who lose jobs and promotion because they object to workplace “cultures” imposed on their company by outside strategists.

Except for the raped women who have to call their rapist “she” in court

Except for the women whose recreational activities are invaded by men just because they can .

Except for the athletes who see male bodies winning their events, or who face injury from male strength in sports like womens football and womens cricket.

Except for the women who miss out on healthcare because they don’t understand obscure ‘inclusive’ language which takes the words like women, cervix, breast out of health information leaflets about womens health and replaces them with mangled language.

Except for the women who miss out on awards and recognition for their work because men have been nominated for Womens Awards - and won!

Except for the women pushed off shortlists by men who say they are women.

I don’t have any objection to trans people ( and by trans people I mean transwomen because transmen by and large just get on with it) living their lives happily, I just wish they would stop trying to muscle in on womens lives.

Because it's not a disability? I don't think they should use disabled toilets. I've heard some people say that they should be allowed to. They can campaign for a third space of they aren't happy with using the toilets of their birth sex. Just like we disabled folk had to push hard for our own spaces.

I'm not anti-trans but I'm pro-women.

Trans people deserve equal rights under the law but we cannot redefine sex in favour of, or to include, gender. Gender is expression through a stereotypical lens of 'male and female' attributes. It's nonsense and absolutely fluid. Women have been rejecting gender stereotypes for many many years now and asking to be recognised as a full person regardless of their perceived roles in society.

That's why we must always, always rely on sex. Male and female. Masculine presenting woman who wants to live as much of their lives passing as a man? Lovely. But under the law, you have the legal protections of a woman even if you say your name is Stan.

Nobody should be discriminated against in employment, housing, health etc for how they express their gender stereotype (personality) as long as it's appropriate for the place. For instance, trans women turning up to an office in a pleather mini skirt and fishnets with giant silicone strap on boobs with erect nipples? That would cause a conversation if a female person did it, the standards should not be more lax for a trans woman. A trans woman rocking up in a skirt suit? Fine.

It's not about pretending trans people don't exist or getting them out of society. It's about rooting provisions in biological (not legal) sex and providing separate third space provisions where necessary to protect trans people of either sex. Unfortunately, you don't just get to identify into a sex category and sex based provisions are there for a reason.

I think most people are tolerant of how others want to live their lives.

However, a significant number of people would prefer to be accorded the respect and dignity to enjoy penis-free spaces.

Biological females enjoyed that right in more patriarchal times but seem to have had that right taken from them by those 'who know better'.

I’m not anti trans. people can wear what they want and behave how they want so long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights.

It does seem, however, that trans rights trump women’s rights with many trans ‘women’ exhibiting a lot of masculine entitlement and aggression in their desire to take over women’s spaces .

i used to be on x/ twitter and some of the things that got posted on there by trans ‘women’ in women’s spaces was pretty grim.

OP do you have any compassion towards women? Like the women being raped in jails because ‘vulnerable/marginalised’ male rapists are put in a cell with them? Or the girls who have dedicated their lives to a sport only to have any chance of success torn away by a boy who was on the boys team last year and has all the male advantages but not decides he wants to demand people pretend he is a girl? Do you have compassion for women being reduced to being called body parts and functions (cervix-haver, bleeders, bodies with vaginas) because men have stolen our language? What about women being forced to undress in front of men in changing rooms? Or people being hounded out of their jobs for correctly stating you can change sex? What about the attendees at the international women’s conference in Glasgow discussing female genital mutilation in Africa to a back drop of transactivists shouting hate?

This. I don't mind or care whether someone identifies as anything they wish to. My objection comes when they expect me to believe that they are that thing . I am a biological woman. A man will never be a woman . My son works with a young woman who identifies as a man during the day and a bat at night. Thst is not a reality it is a mental health crisis

And there you have it, if women say no to males in their spaces, people like you label them anti trans. This is exactly what pisses people off and makes this whole discussion toxic. Saying no does not equal hate.

Agree with this.

This is an excellent point and one that seems to be just dawning on people.

Who benefits from these groups being herded under the one umbrella, do we think?

Because it IS invasive. Men using women's spaces are invading.

Because they are men.