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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel everyone is anti trans?

1000 replies

Kitjo · 22/01/2025 07:14

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

OP posts:
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Zhougzhoug · 22/01/2025 11:48

One thing always comes up on these blasted threads. Mumsnet trans thread bingo, if you will. Someone will always say "find me a single example of an anti-trans post on mumsnet! I bet you can't!"

I remember someone saying that on an earlier thread once. I remember on that thread alone there were several people conflating being trans with sexual fetishes, with paedophilia, autogynaephilia; posting links to cases about rapists and murderers when I think the thread in question had started because someone put their pronouns in their email signature or something; denying it was even possible to be trans, etc. Thing is, the person saying that you can't find a single example of an anti-trans post didn't think that any of those things were anti-trans. So as far as they were concerned, they were right. Choosing my words carefully here...others might disagree, though, mightn't they?

SerafinasGoose · 22/01/2025 11:49

Jennifershuffles · 22/01/2025 08:05

On here there is a large gender critical group who believe in the primacy of sex over gender and are worried about the increase in f to m transitions and what that says about the acceptance of masc lesbians/ the acceptableness of being gender non conforming (ie. Just being accepted for who you are without the need for surgery/pronoun changes). I have quite a lot of sympathy for this point of view.

There is also a contingent on here who clearly find trans people and what they 'stand for' disgusting or frightening. I think this stems from a fear of men honestly as it tends to relate only to trans women.

Both of these povs are about something that is quite niche and won't affect many cis people at all but somehow it's become the flagship issue for those who feel like the world has gone mad.

In answer to your question I think compassion should be the central way to deal with any issue that so intimately affects people's lives. Personally and politically. Stigmatising and spreading hate for trans people as you might see here and as you definitely see in right wing politics does no-one any good.
Fascist politicians are coming for trans people and Muslims now, but they'll be coming for women and gay people next.

In response to your first paragraph: this seems a measured and fair perspective to me, but this particularly vociferous, aggressive lobby group would dismiss you as the unmentionable and view this assertion as unmitigated transphobia. The problem here is that there are few reasonable, measured voices contributing to those discussions. There were - from various trans women a number of years ago - but these individuals have been relentlessly hounded and branded with a most unpleasant epithet which I won't repeat here. It's not enough to be trans, it seems. You have to be the right kind of trans; your views have to conform with those of The Lobby to the letter, or you'll find the doxers, cancellers and threateners quickly on your back with seemingly no let-up.

So much for supporting trans people.

As to your last sentence, they already have. There is no change for women here, it has to be stated: society has always come after us and the other 50% of society doesn't seem to be too outraged or distressed by it. Social injustices committed against women would rightly raise an outcry were they perpetrated against any other demographic.

As to the right-wing contempt for women's rights, see below as to the woeful state of events in Carolina.

SC GOP Reintroduces Bill to Punish People Getting Abortions With Death Penalty | Truthout

Demonstrators watch a live video feed of state Senate proceedings before the body passed a ban on abortion after six weeks of pregnancy at the South Carolina Statehouse on May 23, 2023, in Columbia, South Carolina.

South Carolina Republicans Reintroduce Bill That Would Punish People Getting Abortions With Death Penalty

The bill pushes the doctrine of “fetal personhood,” and makes religious references to “God’s image” within its text.

https://truthout.org/articles/sc-gop-reintroduces-bill-to-punish-people-getting-abortions-with-death-penalty/?fbclid=IwY2xjawH9uO5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHYlU6ip7d7I7Q9d-J1b7hU_SFTR6yn8pd_WfA6NDOnx84IC46a_nGkz82A_aem_AvJq_OiTgYFtQVv1D_FFlg

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:49

LifesTooShortForYourNonsense · 22/01/2025 11:41

Totally agree. I just went for a run (to shake off some of this negativity!) in the woods, alone. I did not feel the right for a women-only wood space. The unisex loos (! Yes! No problem!) were closed, I did not need a woman-only (magic safe space) tree to pee behind.

I posted to reassure op that not everyone is anti trans. Read Mad Honey, watch Heartstoppers and fill yourself will hope for the next generation. I’m off here for a bit, there is such a lack of common sense and misplaced fear - be scared of those in power punching down.

Maybe consider why female only toilets exist, in the first place.

Or consider this: Women flee from males to the toilets. Seek support from other women. Miscarry. Cry. Rinse out blood-stained underwear at the sink and Mooncups. Its the COMMUNAL facility that gives support.

Or this:

"I had an early miscarriage in a public toilet years ago.

The pain was so bad I could barely stand and there was blood everywhere.

Another woman helped me.

I can't imagine the added horror of experiencing this with strange men walking in and out.

Allowing men to use women's toilets is inhumane. If this was being forced on women in Riyadh or Kabul everyone would be up in arms, (particularly the traitorous Democrats lining up to support this). It's time to put an end to this. It's barbaric, indefensible and wholly unnecessary."

Or finally, this:

"here is a rather wonderful poem that I love by Kim Addonizio. It is called To the Woman Crying Uncontrollably in the Next Stall. It details bad sex, bad haircuts, bad bleeding and bad heartache. Its last line is a message from one woman to another in the next toilet cubicle: “Listen I love you joy is coming”.

I have been that woman crying in the toilets. I have been that woman listening to others crying, vomiting, pouring their hearts out, passing tampons and tissues under the door. I have seen girls patch each other up emotionally and physically, find out they are being cheated on by the same guy, wash the blood from their clothes, swap make-up, take drugs, plan to run away together.

It is not that women’s loos are some kind of utopia, but they are a female space where female bodies do female things. They have never felt entirely safe, especially public loos, but safeish, I would say.

The advent of the gender-neutral toilet has stopped all that. Many places now have a “gender neutral” loo or “men’s, women’s, plus gender-neutral” – which effectively means twice as many toilets for men as for women.

Theatres have excelled themselves in alienating women. At the Lyric, in London, for instance, women are invited to walk past a row of urinals to get to a cubicle. Who actually wants this? Do men want to pee in public? Do women want to see them doing so? And if somehow “trans rights” is your answer, then, again, we must ask why it is women who must always make way, have less provision than men, when women’s needs for clean and safe loos matter.

So I am relieved that the Government has said that new buildings – restaurants, schools, hospitals – must have separate male and female toilets and not these “universal” lavatories.

Thank God. Wanting to maintain women-only spaces has been a ridiculous ongoing fight over the past few years. The tide is turning. Our privacy, dignity and safety are not to be given away by men or anyone who cannot be bothered to think about why women might need those things.

Indeed, there is a fundamental refusal from those who believe that being female is just a feeling in a man’s head to accept that there is a difference between male and female bodies. Menstruating women have different needs to men. This can be hugely difficult for teenage girls. My daughters always came home from school bursting because the school loos were horrible places at the best of times. It is ludicrous to me that we are made to feel like blushing naïfs for wanting privacy.

Menopausal women may find themselves flooding and need space to sort that out. Remember when Fleabag’s sister miscarried in the restaurant loo? Well, that happens. I am sorry if this is all too much information for you, but female experience is always somehow too much, too real, too damn inconvenient for those who think what matters is simply disembodied gender.

When I was put on a mixed-sex ward after nearly dying because of an ectopic pregnancy, I was throwing up constantly because of the morphine, had a catheter and was emotionally in a right old state. The men in the beds around me probably were in a bad way too, but I just didn’t want anyone seeing me like this. Do I really need to explain myself? Does any woman?

“Gender neutral” has meant, in reality, fewer facilities for women and more for men. But that’s part of the current stupidity that calls restricting women’s access to safe, private spaces progress. In reality, there is nothing neutral about shutting down women-only spaces."

ICompletelyKnowAboutGuineaPigs7 · 22/01/2025 11:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 11:41

why on earth should that perfectly clear and non controversial view make any one want to ‘end it all… very quickly’. I just don’t see the connection.

Suicide ideation is very common in trans rights activist spaces.

That is very sad, but not womens' problem to solve. That's something needing specialist mental health treatment (I say this as a "cis" woman who has been suicidal and admitted to hospital for it more than once)

RhannionKPSS · 22/01/2025 11:49

TWAM & TMAW , no one can change sex , men should not be enabled in their delusions , men have no business being in women only spaces and transing children is abuse

LostTheMarble · 22/01/2025 11:50

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:45

I don't hate trans people but ......hilarious

Would you like to expand on what you found hateful in that post?

WhatterySquash · 22/01/2025 11:50

I particularly enjoyed the descriptions of trans people’s genitals and their predictions to commit sexual assault

These are just facts.

A vast majority of transwomen have not had surgery to remove their penis and testicles. Even if they had, that would not make them women but it's an alarming fact given that the the penis is used to rape, and it does affect how people feel about TW in women's spaces.

Males who say they are women have a statistically much higher rate of sex offending that males as a whole. There are several reasons why this might be. If you believe anyone who says they are the opposite sex really is genuinely "trans" then you should accept that TW are more likely than most men to be sex offenders. Or perhaps it's that sex offenders are more likely to claim to be trans for dodgy reasons like getting into women's prisons or getting leniency in court. In that case you'd have to agree some people fake being "trans" and that saying you are does not necessarily mean you are. Another reason is that for some men, dressing in women's clothes is a fetish and identifying as trans allows them to perform their fetish in public and force people to take part by affirming them as women. men with fetishes and paraphilias tend to have multiple fetishes which may include, for example, indecent exposure which would explain why there is a link between identifying as trans and sexual offending,

Facts. If you don't like them being mentioned, why not? Are you saying trans people have something to hide and potential risks (such as those associated with sex-offending males being in women's prison's) shouldn't be mentioned? Why not?

I would have thought that "pro-trans" people would be keen to disentangle the genuinely trans from fetishists and criminal chancers.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/01/2025 11:50

Tandora · 22/01/2025 11:46

Mentioning MALE genitals has nothing to do with 'trans'.
And if he shoe fits....wear it.

🤔.

I have a long history on this site of posting evidence based and informative posts on this subject and receive very little but abuse in response.

Edited

Tandora you really haven’t. The nonsense you spout which you can never answer nor back up gets debunked with scrutiny and valid counter argument. You then put this down to abuse. To put it bluntly your arse gets handed to you every time.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/01/2025 11:51

LifesTooShortForYourNonsense · 22/01/2025 11:41

Totally agree. I just went for a run (to shake off some of this negativity!) in the woods, alone. I did not feel the right for a women-only wood space. The unisex loos (! Yes! No problem!) were closed, I did not need a woman-only (magic safe space) tree to pee behind.

I posted to reassure op that not everyone is anti trans. Read Mad Honey, watch Heartstoppers and fill yourself will hope for the next generation. I’m off here for a bit, there is such a lack of common sense and misplaced fear - be scared of those in power punching down.

Oh what a privileged position you come from.

Do you care about the women who have been forced to be incarcerated in prisons with trans identifying males?

Do you care about the women who have not been able to get single sex rape crisis care and who have been told to 'reframe their trauma'?

Do you care that lesbians have been called transphobic for not including males in their dating pool? Or that it is now illegal in Australia for lesbians to meet in single sex groups?

Do you care that young women in the USA have lost lucrative sporting scholarships to males? Do you care that women have lost sporting opportunities and then been forced to change with males with erections in their changing rooms?

Does none of that matter to you because you're OK?

It not us who are doing the punching down.

Drfosters · 22/01/2025 11:51

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:45

I don't hate trans people but ......hilarious

What is wrong with that? That is how you debate. It is perfectly ok to say you don’t hate someone but take issue with elements of what they stand for.

I could just as easily say I don’t hate Keir Starmer but….

Which would be true - I don’t hate him on the slightest but I do have an issue with the direction the government is going.

people are allowed to have views without being insulted and belittled.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:51

workingtowards · 22/01/2025 11:41

I think you need to spend some time with actual trans people. I think you'd find it reassuring and not at all as you imagine.

I think you'll find most of us are 'terfs' directly because we have spent time with actual trans people, and dealt with them. The strange thing is, they tell us to spend time with trans people as if that is the solution that will 'change our minds'; we do, we then become a terf.

Fact is, I don't need to spend time with males to know males do not belong in female on intimate safe single sex spaces. Its really as simple and straightforward as that.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:53

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HawkTUAHspitonthatthing · 22/01/2025 11:54

i dont agree with it or like it, but i wouldnt be horrible to someone just because they were trans.
the thing I am against is unisex toilets, and trans criminals sharing with females in prisons.

literallyarabbit · 22/01/2025 11:54

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:25

Its really not the same thing. Gay people weren't advocating for themselves to lop off their penises or breasts, sterilise themselves, sterilise and chemically castrate children. Or enter female only spaces and sports. In fact, trans is homophobic, it is literally 'transing away the gay'.

Hear hear

What I find most extraordinary is that after a few decades of trying to erase the idea of so-called boys toys and girls toys, jobs for boys, jobs for girls etc etc, we're almost back to even tighter ideas of gender roles and stereotypes. As a whole, trans ideology is based on old-fashioned gender stereotypes. This is something India Willoughby bangs on about endlessly and that he's more of a woman than x, y or z purely because she dresses in a certain way and wears make-up. It's ridiculous. Much of trans ideology is inherently homophobic (particularly with regards to lesbians). I can't believe many can't see this.

I also don't understand why T has been put in with LGB. The latter are sexualities, the former an identity. Identity is largely meaningless. After all, anyone can say they're anything. According to my user name - I am literally a rabbit. But I'm not. And besides, how would i never know what it is like to be a rabbit/live as rabbit? And that takes me to the whole idea of living as a woman. What does that even mean, more so if one has been born a man.

Brefugee · 22/01/2025 11:54

HawkTUAHspitonthatthing · 22/01/2025 11:54

i dont agree with it or like it, but i wouldnt be horrible to someone just because they were trans.
the thing I am against is unisex toilets, and trans criminals sharing with females in prisons.

transphobic bigot!

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:55

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Ryanstartedthefire22 · 22/01/2025 11:55

I dont think most people are anti-trans. People can do what they like and whatever makes them happy. But I don't like trans women using the same public toilets as my young daughters. I think most people agree with that. Some people might perceive that to be anti-trans.

Lentilweaver · 22/01/2025 11:55

HawkTUAHspitonthatthing · 22/01/2025 11:54

i dont agree with it or like it, but i wouldnt be horrible to someone just because they were trans.
the thing I am against is unisex toilets, and trans criminals sharing with females in prisons.

Most people wouldn't. Most people think transgenders should be treated with kindness and fairness.
Not wanting trans people in womens spaces doesnt mean you are a transphobe.

Tandora · 22/01/2025 11:55

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/01/2025 11:50

Tandora you really haven’t. The nonsense you spout which you can never answer nor back up gets debunked with scrutiny and valid counter argument. You then put this down to abuse. To put it bluntly your arse gets handed to you every time.

To put it bluntly your opinion on me is as garbage as your opinions about trans people.

The posts are all there for all to read and evaluate.

LostTheMarble · 22/01/2025 11:56

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/01/2025 11:50

Tandora you really haven’t. The nonsense you spout which you can never answer nor back up gets debunked with scrutiny and valid counter argument. You then put this down to abuse. To put it bluntly your arse gets handed to you every time.

I hate it when people quote just to say ‘this’, but feels absolutely appropriate here.

NDSceptic · 22/01/2025 11:56

Zhougzhoug · 22/01/2025 11:48

One thing always comes up on these blasted threads. Mumsnet trans thread bingo, if you will. Someone will always say "find me a single example of an anti-trans post on mumsnet! I bet you can't!"

I remember someone saying that on an earlier thread once. I remember on that thread alone there were several people conflating being trans with sexual fetishes, with paedophilia, autogynaephilia; posting links to cases about rapists and murderers when I think the thread in question had started because someone put their pronouns in their email signature or something; denying it was even possible to be trans, etc. Thing is, the person saying that you can't find a single example of an anti-trans post didn't think that any of those things were anti-trans. So as far as they were concerned, they were right. Choosing my words carefully here...others might disagree, though, mightn't they?

So you don’t think men with the sexual fetish autogynaephilia are trans?

HawkTUAHspitonthatthing · 22/01/2025 11:57

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Brefugee · 22/01/2025 11:58

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:47

FFS

yeah, she's an evil bigot alright.

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 11:58

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Um, I don't think she was being entirely serious. You sound nice though.

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