To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

I've never seen a woman threaten to track down a trans person, rape, disembowel and murder them as per one of the screen shots posted earlier in this thread.

Women saying no and refusing consent is not bullying or persecution although men have always perceived it as such throughout history. The current crop of trans activist men are just another iteration of that.

Yep, the misogyny of trans activists is bloody disgusting and so transparent. Men in dresses with their cock and balls are more...at.....risk than ACTUAL women and girls. Give me a fucken break!

So when I said "I found posters' attitudes on the thread depressing", you took that to mean, "I support and defend rape and sexual assault "? Seriously?

In fact I'm not defending the behaviour of anyone involved in that awful case. It was just the way it was written about on here that was sad. And made me resolve to try to stay off the FWR board in future

This is always a weird argument - that because they think women might be upset by another woman with a deep voice and facial hair in the female facilities, they would be fine with a man with a deep voice, facial hair, and male strength there instead?

How many women have turned up at trans rights (whatever that means) rallies screaming threats, banging drums, drowning them out talking about their lived experience of being trans - usually with their faces covered, and holding up banners threatening to punch trans people in the face? @Umbilicat

It's on par with the argument that transwomen might be scared of violence in the gents, so they should be allowed in the ladies, ignoring the fact that women in the ladies might be scared by the presence of the transwomen.

Apparently she's worse than the people who threaten to rape her with a barbed-wire baseball bat or violate her with their "ladydick."

Or who posted porn of their own cocks on her children's drawings thread and then when she joked about it and said she wasn't going to report them said she was a child abuser because she hadn't taken any action. That's the mentality a lot of these "trans women" activists have.

I don't want any men like that in female spaces. They aren't all like that, like not all men are creepy pervs, my Nigel being one. But women and girls need men to stay out. All men. Nice ones and horrible ones alike. And any men who violate women's boundaries are an instant red flag.

Good men stay out so the bad ones stand out, so it goes.

The problem is that not wanting to be forced to lie about sex, or to accept totally unevidenced gender ideology as fact, or to have that nonsense taught to our kids as fact, or to want to base our understanding of sex and gender on reality and evidence, is reframed as "anti-trans" and "hating trans people". It's not.

I don't hate trans people for being trans, just as I don't hate religious people for being religious, or people who believe in astrology, crystal healing, homepathy etc. Or people who are anorexic or have body dysmporphia. And I certainly don't want any of those people to be persecuted or harmed because of what they believe. I would always stand up for their human rights.

However, I happen to know that humans can't change sex, young people often go through identities that they later leave behind, and males who declare they are women are not only not women, but just as dangerous or more dangerous statistically than males in general. I also know that saying men can be women and women can be men is overwhelmingly damaging to mainly females, not males - becaise of the differences between the sexes. Hence it's women's sports that are being ruined, women's hospital wards and prisons that are unsafe for women, women's changing rooms that are now places where men can expose themselves and intomidate women woth impunity - and not vice versa.

Be trans, believe yourself to be the opposite sex from what you are, if that's what you need to do, and I will respect that if you respect that I don't have to believe it too, and I don't think institutions, governments, schools etc should promote that belief just as they don't promote astrology as fact, for example.

It is not "anti-trans" to not accept untruths. If you really think it is true that for example a man who identifies as a woman IS a woman, then it's on you, or those tho believe that, to prove it. And I don't mean by just changing the definition of women to include "anyone who says they are" because that would mean woman no longer has a meaning anyway. By that logic, I can be a brain surgeon or a fish or Prince Charles just be changing the definition.

If a religion or a belief such as astronomy was pushed onto the whole of society in this way, and we were being forced to say we believed in it when there's no evidence for it, I would object to that too. It wouldn't mean I hated people who did believe in it. It would just mean I think mutual respect is important and that I should be free to think what I think without persecution, especially as what I think is based on evidence.

For example imagine we were all forced to believe in a stronomy. We all had to go round and declare our star sign at the start of meetings. People who decided to change their star sign got special treatment and were continially feted and put on a pedestal by society. Then people stopped doing safety checks on things like flights and events and instead made sure they were done auspiciously according to astrology - thereby putting us all in dangr. And if anyone stood up and said "actually I don't think this is OK, we should base policy on reality" they got shouted down, possibly hounded out of their job, called a bigot, and declared "anti-astrologer" or they "hate" someone.

No, that does not mean that. It means just keep your unevidenced beliefs to yourself and stop trying to force them on everyone else - just like actual religious people (in the UK at least), astrologers etc do. Accept that I don't have to believe the same as you, and things that are not based on evidence shouldn't be used to decide policy. Then we can all get along and I can respect you as a human being with your own beliefs just as I have mine.

Conflating "wanting to be free to believe in reality" with "anti-trans" is where you're going wrong.

This is always a weird argument - that because they think women might be upset by another woman with a deep voice and facial hair in the female facilities, they would be fine with a man with a deep voice, facial hair, and male strength there instead?

It is, but they're generally so pleased with their clever gotcha that they haven't thought it through, as if every "trans woman" is dainty and ultra feminine in appearance.

For anyone who is keen to present any person who has legitimate concerns about male people having access to female single sex provisions and sports, here is some recent UK polling.

Just for comparison, I know that they have only provided the totals and no break downs but compared to May 2022 here is the following:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [16] 11% this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [61] 74% this is increase by 13%
Don't know [22] 15%. this is decrease by 7%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [34] 27%. this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed [43] 56%. this is increase by 13%
Don't know [23] 17%. this is decrease by 6%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [38] 33%. this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [41] 51%. this is increase by 10%
Don't know [21] 16%. this is decrease by 5%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [39] 31%. this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed [36] 47%. this is increase by 11%
Don't know [25] 22%. this is decrease by 3%

It looks to me that not only have some people who were positive are now saying 'no' but some of the 'don't knows' have become 'no thank yous'.

And the specific non surgical question:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms?
Should be allowed [25] 20%. this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [48] 62%. this is increase by 14%
Don't know [27] 18%. this is decrease by 9%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed [29] 26%. this is decrease by 3%
Should not be allowed [46] 58%. this is increase by 12%
Don't know [25] 16%. this is decrease by 9%

This is a pretty significant swing over time.

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 6%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 16%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?

Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 17%
Don't know 27 [25] 16%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Here is the data behind the 2018 figures
d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

2020

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

2022

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

2024

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

There is a recent US poll that shows similar results and there was an Australian lifestyle poll that also shows similar results.

The majority of people have concerns and those concerns are legitimate and it is incorrect to state that they are based on 'fear and hate' to dismiss their significance.

Good men stay out so the bad ones stand out, so it goes.

Exactly.

Exactly. I personally know some lovely transwomen, but if we let them have a pass, then we have to let these horrible, violent misogynistic men into our space too.

The narrative that all transwomen are lovely and would never harm anyone, really isn't helping anyone, including the transwomen I know (who incidentally would be considered transphobic by many people posting here). It's madness.

Any man destroying a female space by entering it has already shown his disdain for women’s boundaries and their safety, privacy and dignity. They have shown themselves to be dangerous.

Thank you. Hope that puts the views of women on FWR in perspective.

Born in the 70s here - not anti anything. Just don’t care. We fought very hard to keep everyone out of our business, fought to normalise not using mr, miss or mrs on correspondence. our parents named us androgynous names because males were treated better. Our sex life be it with man, woman or both is no one’s business if they are not naked with us at the time. What is in my pants is between me and my waxing specialist. I have no pronouns because it is not relevant to me. Do what you want but leave me alone.

It's just man-made, a concept. It doesn't change the reality of sex or the Earth being round.

Would you be perfectly happy referring to a poster using ‘actual’ as a prefix to ‘woman’? If that’s what their preference was? Because ultimately that’s what cis means even if you have convinced yourself you’re being kind to men who identity as women in subcategorising yourself as ‘cis’.

I think my concern is the Trump approach which seems to have incited such venom and an unthinking mob response.

Trump is a populist - I think this issue in USA has been extreme to one side in politics and media and now may swing extreme other till it finds some balance - which is probably where most people are in reality. Plus there's a lot of on-line fear mongering by both sides in USA.

I don't think trans is a right/left issue in the UK as everything seems to be in USA. There's been more pushback in UK more debate more nuance more science - plus a lot of the pushback here been by left wing feminists concern about women and children (including trans ones ) rights rather than right wing populists like Trump who are more focused on other things.

Exactly. It’s not the fact they’re trans, it’s the fact they’re male that is the problem.

You are correct that people tend to generalise and tar people, rather than apply any nuance to their thinking. This is a problem.

It looks to me that not only have some people who were positive are now saying 'no' but some of the 'don't knows' have become 'no thank yous'.

Which is why trans rights activists hate that we talk about here, because whatever people on this thread say about echo chambers, you can discuss it, you can bring your best arguments to the table. And they are generally found to be false or unconvincing.

Lots of people have personal struggles and difficulties, for a huge variety of reasons and trans people are no more deserving of kindness and understanding than anyone else

Completely agree

I am not anti trans people. But I am very much pro safeguarding.

And you cant have both, not as trans rights are currently defined by their supporters.

Argh apologies that "astrology" came out as "astronomy" in some parts of my post and it's now too late to edit. Doh.

"Trans" is not a variation of straight, gay or bi.

"Trans" is an identity not a sexuality.

In the UK the vast majority of people really don't care whether people are straight gay or bi, that's right. There are many issues when men claim womanhood though. Can you think of any?