Page 24 | To feel everyone is anti trans?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 11:10

I've never seen a woman threaten to track down a trans person, rape, disembowel and murder them as per one of the screen shots posted earlier in this thread.

No, me neither. How is not clear that there is a serious problem here with misogyny, narcissistic rage and violent fantasies?

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:10

Kitjo · 22/01/2025 07:14

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

I am definitely in the pro corner and I feel many people are , you just won't find them on here .
Mumsnet.com views seem to be dominated by the JK Rowling school of thought that for example and for simplicity's sake , the trans community is full of predators, hiding their predilections behind a 'smoke screen'
There is a direct parallel with homophopbia in that this was and often still is said of gay men....gay men are paedophiles just like trans men/women are really rapists/ dangerous to women.
If you support the trans community on here, they jump up and down accusing you of not caring about women . I actually changed my username once because of the viscous pile on last time I dared critiqued the Holy JK on matters trans..I was niave enough to be shocked. I won't this time though .
Just to be clear, JKR is transpphobic , so is Linehan .
The reaction on here to support for trans community is phobic, it's dressed up as many things but it's just hate .

InvisibilityCloakActivated · 22/01/2025 11:10

I don't think people are actively "anti-trans". I think people get a bit fed up and eye-rolly when hospitals spend money updating medical advice removing the word "women" and replacing it with things like "uterus-havers" or "chest-lactators" as it dehumanises women and reduces us to our body parts and doesn't really seem to serve a purpose.

Likewise, councils or shops enforcing rules forcing uterus-havers to share changing rooms/toilets with penis-havers is also an irritation as the feelings of the one penis-haver seem to trump the feelings of the millions of uterus-havers.

bridgetreilly · 22/01/2025 11:10

Absolutely anti men who are autogynaephiliacs calling themselves trans so that we all have to participate in their sexual fetish. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

Also anti people with psychological disorders being treated by mutilating their bodies. Especially children.

Also anti hard-won women’s rights being handed back to men.

So yeah, call me anti-trans, if you want.

literallyarabbit · 22/01/2025 11:11

I don't believe TWAW. In fact, I feel strongly that TWAW is the ultimate male privilege.

People cannot change their biological sex. Biological men have no place in biological women's sport, changing rooms or anything else that is separated by biological sex. (Ad vice versa)

No-one is born in the wrong body. I feel strongly children and those under 18 should not be given hormones or surgeries to irrevocably change their bodies.

If this is anti-trans, than so be it.

Nameychangington · 22/01/2025 11:11

dovetail22uk · 22/01/2025 10:25

Agree that mumsnet is not the place to ask as there seems to be a lot of right wing, middle class, self-involved and self-important people on here. But I'm super pro-trans. You can't even be nonchalant about people who are trans, like "if they don't hurt me then it's fine" kind of attitude. Trans people are in danger every day. It's our duty as privileged people to be actively supportive.

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Trans people are not in danger everyday, that's nonsense.

https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

Women are being murdered by men at the rate of 2 a week in this country. Maybe as a privileged person you should be actively supporting women.

Neither marginalised, abused nor vulnerable | Madison Smith | The Critic Magazine

Ask almost any politician any question about gender identity — even if it’s specifically about women’s bodies or women’s rights — and you will inevitably hear the following sentence with minimal…

https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable

Blondiebeachbabe · 22/01/2025 11:12

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who attack lesbians for not wanting "lady dick"?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who still have a penis, rape women, then go to a women's prison and rape some more?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who enter female sports, and take medals from real women? And sometimes parade around naked in the female changing rooms, with erections?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who insist on using female bathrooms and changing rooms, and sometimes masturbate in there, in full view?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who insist that they have periods, and are in the same amount of pain that you are, when you have yours?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who insist that a newborn should suckle at his milk-less nipples, just to satisfy his fetish?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who are in the ladies loos, at the same time as your 7 year old daughter?

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who win "woman of the year" awards, and have no shame in taking them?

Honestly, wake up! These are men, with fully intact male genitalia, that are still sexually aroused by other women, and that's why they want access to female only spaces. This is happening on our watch. No, I don't want to be kind or compassionate to men, who are openly bullying women and getting away with it. Good on Trump for standing up for women.

You have to ask yourself why the Media talk about Trans all the fucking time, when 0.1-0.6% of the world's population are Trans? Why? No one talked about it in the 80's or 90's. What's the agenda, who is driving it, and why?

DearDeadrie · 22/01/2025 11:13

I can't see how anyone can say they are anti trans, as every trans person is an individual and deserves to be treated as such, I have a few trans friends and I can understand their plight and frustrations, but I don't agree with the sport thing as people born as male will have power over those born female within certain sports.
But I do believe that their are only 2 genders male and female, but if you are born female but dress act have surgery to be a male then call yourself a male or non binary but don't get upset if people get this wrong. I personally think their should only be 3 pronouns male female and non binary.
You can choose whatever you want to be called and I will try and respect that but don't berate me if I get it wrong, this has all be taken too far by people trying to cheat the system in my view and the only people it is hurting is the ones born into the wrong gender.

Blondiebeachbabe · 22/01/2025 11:14

Oh, and just to add :

Do you want us to have kindness and compassion for the Trans women who commit a crime, and it gets recorded as a female crime?

FUCK. NO.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 11:14

There is a direct parallel with homophopbia in that this was and often still is said of gay men....gay men are paedophiles just like trans men/women are really rapists/ dangerous to women.

Do you accept that some people are only attracted to others of their biological sex? If you don't, that's homophobia. Many trans rights activists do not. Nancy Kelley, the CEO of Stonewall, a lesbian herself, has called gay and lesbian people who won't consider opposite sex trans people as sexual partners, "sexual racists".

Do you see any problem with that?

Do you accept that there was a need, given this, for a charity focused simply on LGB people?

RatalieTatalie · 22/01/2025 11:15

Namechangedforgoodreasons · 22/01/2025 10:33

The problem is the overreach. Very few people would care if trans people just did whatever they wanted to do without insisting that everyone else validate their own opinion of themselves, and attacking anyone who disagreed as hateful transphobic bigots.

I'm happy for transmen and transwomen to call themselves transmen and transwomen, but not happy for them to call themselves "men" and "women". Because they aren’t. Other mammals have words that show whether the adult is a biological male or a biological female, so why can’t we? Whatever cosmetic surgery a bull had, whatever hormones it took, it wouldn't magically become a cow.

I have gay and lesbian friends and family who are appalled at the way Stonewall has succeeded in joining two disparate groups of people as if they have the same interests, when they don’t. Being gay or lesbian is simply about sexual attraction, and it’s ridiculous that a heterosexual biological male can announce that he is really a woman and is therefore a lesbian and entitled to join lesbian groups online and in real life.

It’s appalling that youngsters in the turmoil of the teenage years are encouraged to think that if they feel they don’t fit in with the stereotypes of "boy" or "girl" they might really be the other sex, and should go ahead with actions or medical treatment that will change the course of their whole life irrevocably, when they are too young to understand the full implications.

There's a lot more fuss about transwomen because it’s an objective fact that females are on average weaker and more vulnerable to male attack, and males are on average stronger, more aggressive and more likely to attack others. Statistics show that transwomen retain male patterns of violence, including sexual violence. Look at the huge number of messages threatening murder and rape received by people like JK Rowling. I don’t think many of them will be from transmen.

Women are historically a marginalised and oppressed group, and are now told they have to accept into their group any male who says he is "authentically" (!) a woman and so he must be allowed to take places on programmes and shortlists that have been reserved for women. When the UN has a trans woman as its first "UK Women Champion" the cliche "the world has gone mad" seems appropriate.

To me the whole thing is no different from Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who says she is black because she feels black. Yet she is not applauded and black people are not reviled for disagreeing with her self-identification.

How can a biological girl say she "feels like a boy" or a biological boy say he "feels like a girl" when they have no idea what it feels like to be the opposite sex? All they can be going on is their stereotyped idea of what girls and boys "should" feel like. A boy who likes playing with dolls and wearing dresses may or may not grow up to be gay, but he will still be in a sub-set of the category "man", not a sub-set of the category "woman". The whole trans idea is based on regressive stereotypes.

Well, you did ask!

Edited

Genuinely wondering, why what someone calls themselves impacts on you at all.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:15

Helleofabore · 22/01/2025 11:02

For anyone who is keen to present any person who has legitimate concerns about male people having access to female single sex provisions and sports, here is some recent UK polling.

Just for comparison, I know that they have only provided the totals and no break downs but compared to May 2022 here is the following:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [16] 11% this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [61] 74% this is increase by 13%
Don't know [22] 15%. this is decrease by 7%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [34] 27%. this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed [43] 56%. this is increase by 13%
Don't know [23] 17%. this is decrease by 6%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [38] 33%. this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [41] 51%. this is increase by 10%
Don't know [21] 16%. this is decrease by 5%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed [39] 31%. this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed [36] 47%. this is increase by 11%
Don't know [25] 22%. this is decrease by 3%

It looks to me that not only have some people who were positive are now saying 'no' but some of the 'don't knows' have become 'no thank yous'.

And the specific non surgical question:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms?
Should be allowed [25] 20%. this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed [48] 62%. this is increase by 14%
Don't know [27] 18%. this is decrease by 9%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed [29] 26%. this is decrease by 3%
Should not be allowed [46] 58%. this is increase by 12%
Don't know [25] 16%. this is decrease by 9%

This is a pretty significant swing over time.

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 6%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 16%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?

Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 5%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 17%
Don't know 27 [25] 16%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Here is the data behind the 2018 figures
d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

2020

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

2022

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

2024

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

There is a recent US poll that shows similar results and there was an Australian lifestyle poll that also shows similar results.

The majority of people have concerns and those concerns are legitimate and it is incorrect to state that they are based on 'fear and hate' to dismiss their significance.

Trans and trans activists themselves have to take personal responsibility for their support going backwards.

Argue that women and girls "don't have the right" to public single sex spaces? You'll fuggen piss women and feminists off.

Argue that women and girls "don't have the right" to female only sports and that post-pubertal males "don't have an advantage"? You'll fuggen piss women and feminists off.

Argue that women and girls "don't have the right" to single sex battered womens shelters and that rape centres should be run by a male with no training in counselling except marketing who will sit in on females being raped and ask them IF THEY ORGASMED during the assault, an there's 'nothing wrong with that'? You'll fuggen piss women and feminists off.

Say 'terfs' should be punched in the head? You'll fuggen piss women and feminists off.

Say 'terfs' and women and girls who do nothing but plaintively ask for our safe single sex spaces and fair sport deserve to be "raped with a barb-wired baseball bat", "skinned alive", "burn in a greasefire", "kill yourself", "disembowelled", "slit their throat and then run the knife down your spine", "raped till your uterus ruptures" etc etc? You'll fuggen piss women and feminists off.

Trans/trans activists are dangerously violent misogynists who with their own threats, PROVE why females need spaces away from males. They are their own worst enemy. An own goal. We need safe intimate single sex spaces - no, I'll rape you/slit your spinal cord. Ok, and they WONDER WHY we don't want them in our spaces. These people (not all trans, but these trans and trans activists that make these psychotic, unhinged violent misogynistic threats) are the ones that are causing trans to lose the war. So before any of you people attack us GC feminists and 'terfs', consider the behaviour of these trans/trans activists, and consider that maybe, just maybe they are not helping things and are actually proving our point.

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 11:15

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:10

I am definitely in the pro corner and I feel many people are , you just won't find them on here .
Mumsnet.com views seem to be dominated by the JK Rowling school of thought that for example and for simplicity's sake , the trans community is full of predators, hiding their predilections behind a 'smoke screen'
There is a direct parallel with homophopbia in that this was and often still is said of gay men....gay men are paedophiles just like trans men/women are really rapists/ dangerous to women.
If you support the trans community on here, they jump up and down accusing you of not caring about women . I actually changed my username once because of the viscous pile on last time I dared critiqued the Holy JK on matters trans..I was niave enough to be shocked. I won't this time though .
Just to be clear, JKR is transpphobic , so is Linehan .
The reaction on here to support for trans community is phobic, it's dressed up as many things but it's just hate .

Show quote history

It's not the same at all. We know that males are a significant threat to women no matter how they identify, so we want to keep them out of our safe space. Whether they are trans or not is immaterial. The threat is men and it's real. It's not some invented bogeyman.

Also, the trans community are well known for saying someone wasn't "really trans" and using it as a smokescreen, when a transperson is convicted of a heinous crime, so that's a bit pot kettle.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 11:17

Genuinely wondering, why what someone calls themselves impacts on you at all.

Try RTFT then. Lots of examples of the problems for women and girls. In fact the poster explained perfectly well in her post.

WhatterySquash · 22/01/2025 11:18

The fact is most people don't like being forced to lie or deny what they can see in front of them, and don't like fakeness. Many people, including most feminists, object to gender stereotypes as a definition of what each sex should be like.

So when I see a male person adopting a horrible, sexualised stereotype of a woman and saying they ARE a woman and I have to agree and also agree that person should be included in female spaces and categories, yes that's going to piss me off.

If the same person just accepted they are male and wanted to dress in a feminine way and I wasn't being told what I have to believe about it, and it wasn't influencing policies to the severe detriment of women, then fine, I have no issue with gender nonconformity, I'm pretty GNC myself which is partly why I have no truck with the idea that a woman is someone who wears fake eyelashes and heels and has long hair -m I'm a woman and I don'e.

If the same person truly believed they are a woman, well they're free to believe what they want but it's not helpful to them or the rest of society to pander to an untruth. Just as we don't agree with anorexics that they're fat or force everyone to agree with religious people that there is a god or gods.

workingtowards · 22/01/2025 11:18

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:52

In fact, the press are silent on the risks to women and girls. The press are the very reason its taken so long for people to see what is happening.

a journey of great pain during their teenage years. Many of them have come from a place of self-harm and suicidal ideation. A huge proportion are autistic too.

Which is exactly our point! It is not actually trans. Its trauma and mental illness looking for an outlet, the 2020s version of cutting and anorexia. It doesn't make it valid. And if trans were bullied, it wouldn't be the 'in' thing, the social contagion it is at schools. Trans are celebrated.

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Many gay people struggle with their identity and mental health during their teenage years too. Would you suggest that means they are mentally ill too?

LittleMissViper · 22/01/2025 11:19

YANBU to believe that everyone is anti trans.

YABU to require everyone to be anti trans because that's what you believe they are.

HTH.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 11:19

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:10

I am definitely in the pro corner and I feel many people are , you just won't find them on here .
Mumsnet.com views seem to be dominated by the JK Rowling school of thought that for example and for simplicity's sake , the trans community is full of predators, hiding their predilections behind a 'smoke screen'
There is a direct parallel with homophopbia in that this was and often still is said of gay men....gay men are paedophiles just like trans men/women are really rapists/ dangerous to women.
If you support the trans community on here, they jump up and down accusing you of not caring about women . I actually changed my username once because of the viscous pile on last time I dared critiqued the Holy JK on matters trans..I was niave enough to be shocked. I won't this time though .
Just to be clear, JKR is transpphobic , so is Linehan .
The reaction on here to support for trans community is phobic, it's dressed up as many things but it's just hate .

Show quote history

No, the issue is they are MALE, not that they are 'predators' per se. You really don't understand our argument, @LoveACoffeeMorning . You clearly haven't bothered to actually listen and read our arguments, nor JK's arguments, as she is most certainly not transphobic in the slightest.

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 11:20

workingtowards · 22/01/2025 11:18

Many gay people struggle with their identity and mental health during their teenage years too. Would you suggest that means they are mentally ill too?

Show quote history

The difference is you can be same-sex attracted, you can't change sex. Pretty simple stuff.

DisabledDemon · 22/01/2025 11:20

No one (I hope) would say that someone who feels that they have been born in the wrong body should be denied the chance to rectify that. However, there are aspects that feel utterly wrong.

We should not be encouraging/facilitating young people to take drugs/undergo surgery to change themselves. I was quite a tomboy when I was young - no doubt, now, I would be encouraged to question my sexuality and consider transitioning. In fact, I thought boys were stupid and certainly wouldn't have wanted to be one. Encouraging young teens to alter their bodies should be regarded as assault.

Science is science. You can alter your physical characteristics but not your DNA. Inevitably, men who transition and then enter women's sports will have the advantage. A level playing field? No.

You may well wish to use women's changing rooms/toilets/attend a women's prison. Fine - as long as you have fully transitioned. If you still have a penis, you can stay out of my space.

suggestionsplease1 · 22/01/2025 11:21

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:49

As you've been told repeatedly, correlation is not causation. That countries do well economically, does NOT mean women benefit from males in our most intimate safe spaces. And you know it. So stop the LIES!

Show quote history

I'm not the one that needs to lie.

I am happy with presenting the evidence as it stands.

I know it's distressing for you to see the big picture evidence and you try to obfuscate from that.

Why don't you try researching 'economically successful countries' against those that do best for women?

I just have and there is nothing like the association between womens parity with men and general measures of women's wellbeing for the top performing countries on that measure in comparison with a cross reference against countries that have introduced self -id.

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 22/01/2025 11:21

TWCBWSBNBASTM (trans women can be women socially but not biologically and sometimes that matters)

gotmyknickersinatwist · 22/01/2025 11:21

Catza · 22/01/2025 10:49

Mu post doesn't need clarification because the terms are already clearly defined. Transgender female is someone who was born a male and identifies as a woman. Transgender male is someone who was born a female and identifies as male.
So BSM, as a transgender male should in theory be welcome to use female facilities. Practically though, I am sure when he rocks up in one with his deep voice, facial hair and ripped upper body, I highly doubt every female there will be happy to assume he has a right to be there on the basis of his biology.

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BSM sounds like just my type. I'd certainly do a double take in the loos, and I'd hope I hadn't just let one rip.

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:22

Kitjo · 22/01/2025 07:14

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

Seriously, if you read all of this thread and take the views of these people to heart you will want to end it all ...very quickly.
Just accept that these are not your people and protect yourself. Remove yourself, it's too upsetting, especially as Trump becomes President again! Today is not the day 💓

LostTheMarble · 22/01/2025 11:22

LoveACoffeeMorning · 22/01/2025 11:10

I am definitely in the pro corner and I feel many people are , you just won't find them on here .
Mumsnet.com views seem to be dominated by the JK Rowling school of thought that for example and for simplicity's sake , the trans community is full of predators, hiding their predilections behind a 'smoke screen'
There is a direct parallel with homophopbia in that this was and often still is said of gay men....gay men are paedophiles just like trans men/women are really rapists/ dangerous to women.
If you support the trans community on here, they jump up and down accusing you of not caring about women . I actually changed my username once because of the viscous pile on last time I dared critiqued the Holy JK on matters trans..I was niave enough to be shocked. I won't this time though .
Just to be clear, JKR is transpphobic , so is Linehan .
The reaction on here to support for trans community is phobic, it's dressed up as many things but it's just hate .

Show quote history

Im yet to see any genuine examples of JKR’s alleged transphobia. It seems to fall under the same umbrella as anyone else’s supposed transphobia - not absolute agreeing that a trans person is the opposite sex they say they are. Comparing homophobia to the trans ideology movement is completely wrong and homophobia in itself - there is a huge difference in the political agenda. The gay rights movement was about recognising that two adults of the same sex are entitled to the same rights and protections of heterosexual people, that the whole idea that they’re ’coming for your children’ was propaganda. As an ideology, the trans movement relies on pushing the message from schools to business and anywhere else for people to comply with the belief.