Page 22 | To feel everyone is anti trans?

Kitjo · 2025-01-22T07:14:18+00:00

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

OvaHere · 22/01/2025 10:45

LifesTooShortForYourNonsense · 22/01/2025 09:56

Im actually quite shocked at some of the anti trans attitudes on here - I can see there are some scared and hurt people, but I cannot see their point of view. Celebrating the taking away of human rights is what scares me - all human rights, the movement will grow and affect all of us if not called out. « First they came for the trans community, and I did nothing.. »

People have the right to body autonomy and to live how they choose if not harming others. ‘Rights’ are not a pie, giving someone else a slice does not take away from yours.

All people are people, and I’m a person - why wouldn’t it be me next? I’m really not being worthy, my concern is for myself and my family, I see any erosion of respect and acceptance coming for us soon. And I’m white, middle class and straight - imagine the fear in anyone who isn’t, and for young people working their way through life. Crappy attitudes are really getting me down these past few days.

Powerful men and the trans orgs that represent them have lobbied for decades, often in the shadows to remove women's rights.

Sometimes rights are exactly like a pie. If you give a huge slice of women's rights to men then women have less pie and men have their own full pie plus a big slice of the women's.

Perhaps you think women should have less than we had before but at least be honest and admit that's what you believe.

Mielbee · 22/01/2025 10:46

namechangeGOT · 22/01/2025 10:33

Can you stop calling me 'cis' please. I find it hurtful and it's not something I agreed to. I'm just 'woman'. If you must add a pre-fix to it can you at least make it something I have agreed to? 'real- woman' would work?

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I called myself a cis woman. I am perfectly happy to call you a woman if that's what you would like.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 10:46

Also, OP, if you define "anti trans" as women having a problem with the some of the demands of the trans "rights" movement, YANBU that "everyone is anti trans". Most people don't support demands like self ID or males competing in female sports.

Lentilweaver · 22/01/2025 10:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 10:46

Also, OP, if you define "anti trans" as women having a problem with the some of the demands of the trans "rights" movement, YANBU that "everyone is anti trans". Most people don't support demands like self ID or males competing in female sports.

Absolutely true.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 10:47

Powerful men and the trans orgs that represent them have lobbied for decades, often in the shadows to remove women's rights.

Sometimes rights are exactly like a pie. If you give a huge slice of women's rights to men then women have less pie and men have their own full pie plus a big slice of the women's.

Perhaps you think women should have less than we had before but at least be honest and admit that's what you believe.

👏 perfectly put

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:47

KimberleyClark · 22/01/2025 10:35

I hate the way celebrities and public figures are instantly blacklisted and denounced as creeps on here if they dare to say anything that is not one hundred percent condemnatory of trans people.

You mean you hate the way celebrities and public figures are instantly blacklisted and denounced as bigots on here if they dare to say anything that is not one hundred percent congratulatory and idolising of trans people.

Umbilicat · 22/01/2025 10:47

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 10:34

If you're on Twitter, you must have seen the huge numbers of rape threats, death threats, and threats of violence, from transwomen and their supporters, sent to J.K. Rowling, as well as your average normal woman who wants to protect women's rights?

Do you condemn that vile bullying too? It's much worse than women simply saying they don't believe men are women or that single-sex spaces should remain so, no?

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Yes, of course I can do that bullying as well. However, two wrongs do not make a right and JKR and her henchwomrn (who are worse than her) should know better than to keep dragging the argument down into the gutter. The bullying I see of trans people is much worse.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/01/2025 10:47

WaitingForMojo · 22/01/2025 10:44

I disagree. I don’t feel the same and neither does anyone in my circles. Other than one prejudiced relative, a bit like the racist uncle nobody wants to listen to over Christmas dinner.

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Yeah, because being a sex realist and not willing to play along with the Emperor’s New Clothes is EXACTLY the same as a racist uncle at Chrimbo dinner.

Come on, someone give a coherent argument. Make it make sense.

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 10:49

Umbilicat · 22/01/2025 10:47

Yes, of course I can do that bullying as well. However, two wrongs do not make a right and JKR and her henchwomrn (who are worse than her) should know better than to keep dragging the argument down into the gutter. The bullying I see of trans people is much worse.

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Worse than constant rape and death threats. Right.

Lyn348 · 22/01/2025 10:49

I don't have a problem with trans people believing they are trans. I have a problem with anyone thinking they can magically change sex.

I strongly believe being trans is a mental health issue and a type of body dysmorphia. It is worryingly common amongst the autistic young people I work with. We would not be encouraging any other body dysmorphia and I find it extremely concerning that we are allowing anyone to cut off healthy parts of their body.

I hope that in the future being trans is reclassified as a mental health disorder and people especially teens can get proper help to understand why they might be feeling the way they do.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:49

suggestionsplease1 · 22/01/2025 10:37

Sorry what exactly was the correction?

Have you suddenly managed to find a study that shows that the best performing countries for women in the world are not also those that have policies of self ID?

Of course you haven't. You seem to be implying that I am making some causal argument, but causation is irrelevant for my argument,: I only have to show that there is no big picture evidence that indicates that policies of self-id are harmful to women.

There isn't, in fact across the board there is an incredibly strong trend that the countries that are doing best for trans people are also those that are doing best for women.

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As you've been told repeatedly, correlation is not causation. That countries do well economically, does NOT mean women benefit from males in our most intimate safe spaces. And you know it. So stop the LIES!

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 10:49

If you can find worse threats made by J.K Rowling and the gender criticals than the stuff on here https://terfisaslur.com/ I'd be very surprised!

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

https://terfisaslur.com

Catza · 22/01/2025 10:49

gotmyknickersinatwist · 22/01/2025 08:31

Your post needs clarity.
When you say anti-female transgender do you mean biological women or men, because, to me at least, female refers to women.
Is Brian Michael Smith in this scenario a transman, i.e. biologically female? I, personally, would take no issue with a female person using women's toilets.
Transmen, i.e. women, are not absent from the debate, at least not that I've seen on MN. It's the case that women make up the vast majority of people on MN, so we're going to discuss the impact on women.
The threat to women in prison comes from biological males. The threat to women in sport, whether that's unfair competition or serious injury, comes from biological males. Women here are less likely to discuss the threat of Brian Michael Smith using the next cubicle.

I've frequently seen discussed the potential effects of hormone treatment for girls, double mastectomy, how autistic girls are disproportionately impacted by gender ideology and identifying as transgender. A huge part of the debate is centred around how these children, boys too of course, should be supported in a way that does not involve irreversible medical treatment, and how people have been sold a lie that treatments are not irreversible, and that they will 'cure' someone of their dysphoria and dismorphia.
Many women here are mothers who are naturally going to discuss their concerns for children.

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Mu post doesn't need clarification because the terms are already clearly defined. Transgender female is someone who was born a male and identifies as a woman. Transgender male is someone who was born a female and identifies as male.
So BSM, as a transgender male should in theory be welcome to use female facilities. Practically though, I am sure when he rocks up in one with his deep voice, facial hair and ripped upper body, I highly doubt every female there will be happy to assume he has a right to be there on the basis of his biology.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 10:50

I disagree. I don’t feel the same and neither does anyone in my circles.

Are you not aware that you are in a bubble? Talk to people outside your "circles". I do. Most people aren't buying it, they want to be kind where possible to vulnerable people, but they're not as gullible as people make out.

Pickledpoppetpickle · 22/01/2025 10:50

you can still be 'pro-trans' and concerned about women's sports, women's safety, etc. etc surely?

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 10:51

Pickledpoppetpickle · 22/01/2025 10:50

you can still be 'pro-trans' and concerned about women's sports, women's safety, etc. etc surely?

Not according to lots of trans activists!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/01/2025 10:51

So BSM, as a transgender male should in theory be welcome to use female facilities. Practically though, I am sure when he rocks up in one with his deep voice, facial hair and ripped upper body, I highly doubt every female there will be happy to assume he has a right to be there on the basis of his biology.

Ah, so you think butch women shouldn't use female facilities? Interesting take.

MrsSkylerWhite · 22/01/2025 10:51

BarbaraHoward · Today 07:24

Pigeonqueen · Today 07:21
You won’t get a good representation of views on Mumsnet. You’re asking in the wrong place.

Yup. Support for trans people isn't well received on here. You'll find it elsewhere though.
**
I don't think it's an issue most people give too much thought to IRL, it's hugely built up in importance online.

This.

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:52

workingtowards · 22/01/2025 10:38

The press needs to take some responsibility for the level of emotion in the trans debate. If you were to base your understanding of what they are on the headlines, you would think that they were all either sexual predators trying to get into the ladies loos for kicks, or misogynists undermining women's sports.

My experience is that this is not reflective of the actual trans community. The trans people I know have arrived where they are through a journey of great pain during their teenage years. Many of them have come from a place of self-harm and suicidal ideation. A huge proportion are autistic too. They are vulnerable, often bullied and socially isolated. They are not the threat the media makes them out to be. Quite the opposite.

I think the hysteria needs to be taken out of the whole debate. Just put an extra loo in for goodness sake and introduce some sensible rules into sports competitions. No need for all this anger.

In fact, the press are silent on the risks to women and girls. The press are the very reason its taken so long for people to see what is happening.

a journey of great pain during their teenage years. Many of them have come from a place of self-harm and suicidal ideation. A huge proportion are autistic too.

Which is exactly our point! It is not actually trans. Its trauma and mental illness looking for an outlet, the 2020s version of cutting and anorexia. It doesn't make it valid. And if trans were bullied, it wouldn't be the 'in' thing, the social contagion it is at schools. Trans are celebrated.

NewdayNewstartin2025 · 22/01/2025 10:52

Umbilicat · 22/01/2025 10:31

Apologies for not having read the full thread. I’m broadly with you OP. Like virtually every issue this is nuanced and it worries me how many few people seem able to accept the grey areas.

The vast majority of trans people just want to live their lives, which are difficult enough, and I see terrible hate being spewed at them – led by J. K. Rowling, who’s in my opinion completely unhinged on the issue now (having started out balanced).

On Twitter which I have to use a lot for work, I see a mean girl clique surrounding her, mainly made up of not very good authors who get their kicks from having their ringleader retweet their posts and follow them. They’re all now cheering Trump for speaking out against trans people, as if this was the only issue that matters, which I find horrifying. And I got tired of a load of people telling me at the last election they were going to vote Tory because Keir Starmer didn’t know what a woman was, when in actual fact the reason they wanted to vote Tory was because they were worried about VAT on school fees, but the woman thing had become a more acceptable thing to say.

I don’t believe this women are in danger in public bathrooms nonsense, though I personally don’t like mixed gender toilets because I don’t want to pee in a space where a smelly man’s just been.

However, I do see there are issues in women’s sport and I do think it’s wrong to talk about issues such as chest feeding. Trans people just have to suck those kind of things up. In practice, if you are a trans man who gives birth, I’m sure you can have a word with your midwife about what terminology you would like to use, but it’s not fair to make it a blanket thing for all women.

But in summary the vile bullying trans people now are experiencing – take the comments about lovely Alex on Traitors - goes against everything a country like Britain used to uphold.

Could you show evidence of your claim that JKR spews hate and is unhinged? That's a massive claim you are making, backing it up with facts is important.

I'll wait for your evidence of her hatred and of her being 'unhindged'.

Brefugee · 22/01/2025 10:53

The vast majority of trans people just want to live their lives, which are difficult enough, and I see terrible hate being spewed at them – led by J. K. Rowling, who’s in my opinion completely unhinged on the issue now (having started out balanced).

well, @Umbilicat let's define some terms

More or less unhinged than India Willoughby claiming to now have a cervix and wanting to show it on TV?

More or less unhinged than hacking off your own balls and eating them?

More or less unhinged than all the screaming at women trying to speak?

You know who the REAL losers in all this are? The actual trans people who transitioned 30 years ago who now have all the modern Stonewall shite to contend with, which has turned people against them. And women and girls who are, once again, at the back of the queue for things like toilets, sports and rape services without men in them.

Namechangedforgoodreasons · 22/01/2025 10:54

dovetail22uk · 22/01/2025 10:25

Agree that mumsnet is not the place to ask as there seems to be a lot of right wing, middle class, self-involved and self-important people on here. But I'm super pro-trans. You can't even be nonchalant about people who are trans, like "if they don't hurt me then it's fine" kind of attitude. Trans people are in danger every day. It's our duty as privileged people to be actively supportive.

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WTAF?

So have I got this right: you're saying "it’s not the place to ask" because the opinions of people you classify as "right wing, middle class, self-involved and self-important" aren’t as important as the opinions of people you decide are from other classes or have political opinions you approve of?

And only opinions you agree with should be heard?

If I haven’t got that right, please do clarify what you meant.

TheRadiatorLady · 22/01/2025 10:54

NewdayNewstartin2025 · 22/01/2025 10:52

Could you show evidence of your claim that JKR spews hate and is unhinged? That's a massive claim you are making, backing it up with facts is important.

I'll wait for your evidence of her hatred and of her being 'unhindged'.

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Apparently she's worse than the people who threaten to rape her with a barbed-wire baseball bat or violate her with their "ladydick."

IdylicDay · 22/01/2025 10:55

KimberleyClark · 22/01/2025 10:40

No I’m not. Sandi Toksvig is a good example.

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Sandi the meninist, who has a brother who enters female only spaces? BAD example. Her being called out for being a Mens Rights activist and rightly shamed is not 'cancelled'.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/01/2025 10:55

MrsSkylerWhite · 22/01/2025 10:51

BarbaraHoward · Today 07:24

Pigeonqueen · Today 07:21
You won’t get a good representation of views on Mumsnet. You’re asking in the wrong place.

Yup. Support for trans people isn't well received on here. You'll find it elsewhere though.
**
I don't think it's an issue most people give too much thought to IRL, it's hugely built up in importance online.

This.

What a coherent, reasoned, balanced argument. Finally. Thank you.