To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

the one thing I really do care about is that a lot of trans individuals, both male and female, appear to be autistic and that IS a problem. Giving a predominantly autistic group (who oft have black and white thinking) drugs and surgeries that will render them infertile is eugenics in action. I cannot support that.

but mostly I don’t have time to give a fuck about people who deny reality. Who demand I lie. Demand I don’t have a different opinion. Demand I don’t speak.

if that makes me anti trans then yeah, I’ll wear that badge with pride because it’s better than being on the side of this facist eugenicist bullshit that’s harming multiple groups of people especially women and children.

this

You find it depressing that rape and sexual assault is condemned?

That says more about you and your support and defence of rape and sexual assault and the type of person you are/morals. To me, rape and sexual assault is bad, no matter the sex or gender of the person who does it, and trans are NOT ABOVE THE LAW. As much as you desperately want the UNTOUCHABLE Sacred Caste to be above the law.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

What they’re actually living is a life of the male idea of being a woman, and vice versa of trans men in what they believe to be male. It is a belief in the idea of being a woman or man as societal stereotype. However girls and women’s living experiences for hundreds of generations has been based on our biology, our worth only deemed by beauty and reproduction standards. That’s why speaking about women’s biology is now silenced even further as it’s the greatest offence in not recognising gender ideology. You cannot know being female without speaking about our biology, how it has shaped our social and physical experiences so it is questionable how any male born person can know what its is to be female.

But trans invading the private spaces of women and girls, is hurting people.
This is a moot point.

@Bunny44 How common is this really?? Are there really 'lots' of trans people going round threatening to rape women for not letting them use the women's toilet? Would love to hear the evidence of this

Enough to silence people. Twitter / X is full of rape threats ‘with my big fat hairy lady dick in your dried up hag vagina’ is a typical post aimed at JKR, for example.

Plus the women cancelled from jobs, taken to tribunals, reported to their employers. Havjng police turn up at their door. The woman in Hebden Bridge who took a photo of a sticker and was reported for doing so and was recorded by police, who arrived at her door , as having committed a ‘no-crime hate incident’.

TRAs publicly encouraging followers to ‘punch a terf’ in a speech, setting off smoke bombs and releasing thousands of insects in women’s conferences and meetings…

Have you really missed all this? It’s in mainstream news.

And caring about it, and resisting it IN NO WAY means people are any less concerned about rape by heterosexual men. Of course it doesn’t.

"Celebrating the taking away of human rights is what scares me - all human rights, the movement will grow and affect all of us if not called out. « First they came for the trans community, and I did nothing.. »"

What human rights are being taken away from people with transgender identities though? Can you clarify this please?

"People have the right to body autonomy and to live how they choose if not harming others. ‘Rights’ are not a pie, giving someone else a slice does not take away from yours."

Should there not be laws and policies to ensure that the decisions made by others do not, intentionally or not, harm other groups of people collectively and individually though? You say this, but can you say that having male people accessing single sex provisions causes no harm to the female people who need those provisions?

In this way, 'rights' can indeed by like pie. That was always a pretty weak analogy. There are conflicts between what people perceive as 'rights' for different groups. It is important though to establish what is a right and what is a privilege.

Well that's a confusing comment.

This. There is a psychological condition, gender dysphoria, where people are deeply alienated by their sexed body. There is also one where people believe they are made of glass.

The majority of people who claim to be "trans" do not have genuine gender dysphoria. "Cross dressing" is a known sexual fetish. Maybe people don't realise how much that group (called transvestites until now) has been seamlessly incorporated under the banner of "trans" with all the confused female teenagers who want to opt out of their sex, and medically gender dysphoric people. It's an identity label anyone can adopt. You can call yourself "trans" today and it's completely meaningless in any real sense.

Autogynephilia is fantasising about yourself sexually as a woman, when you are a man. A lot of prominent trans rights activists fit this description. It's not unreasonable for women to not want to be unwilling props in the sexual fetishes of boundary violating men.

I am anti-state supported gaslighting

'How common is this really?? Are there really 'lots' of trans people going round threatening to rape women for not letting them use the women's toilet? Would love to hear the evidence of this 🙄'

Maybe don't use the derogatory emoji before researching the answer to your own question.

Census data of prisoners in England and wales prisons in 2021. 1 in 623 TW in prison for sexual assault, compared to 1 in 3000 men and compared to 1 in 250,000 women.

So, yes, plenty of evidence.

How so?

Woman has a specific meaning. Adult Human Female.

This does not include a bunch of blokes who are trying to appropriate our words and spaces.

We, rightly, don't tolerate blackface. Please explain why we should tolerate this form of appropriation when it, demonstrably, harms women and girls?

I think that 'anti-trans' is massively simplifying and dismissive of a huge range of issues.

Gender identity is just stereotypes that not everyone relates to, and we are mostly all groomed into.
Not being into those stereotypes or relating to them, is normal. It doesnt mean they are not their biological sex.
How you feel about yourself and your body and your identity, is personality.
The gender identity brigade are being sold such a lie. Its so damaging and has so many wide ranging consequences.

its shit that so many people actually try and frame people with massive concerns as haters, or lumping them in with right wingers.

I know so many people who identify as trans. I do not hate them or wish anything bad. I dont care how they want to present to the world visibly, but i do not think we should be pressured into going along with it all. I think its delusional and I used to be much more ok with it all as just another form of self expression, until laws started getting passed that are massive safeguarding issues, and its like reality is just being redefined. Its as if people are getting reality mixed up with their internet characters.

I am against performing experimental (and often unsuccessful) surgeries on vulnerable young people for starters. Gender realignment surgery isn't the answer.

Agree that mumsnet is not the place to ask as there seems to be a lot of right wing, middle class, self-involved and self-important people on here. But I'm super pro-trans. You can't even be nonchalant about people who are trans, like "if they don't hurt me then it's fine" kind of attitude. Trans people are in danger every day. It's our duty as privileged people to be actively supportive.

Evidence that trans people are in more danger every day than women?

Everyone that I personally know is anti trans.

To the OP, YABU. You're setting the bar of 'anti-trans' in the wrong place, and including the vast number of reasonable people who are fine with trans-identifying people but want to resolve the conflict of rights caused by the demands that some of the lobby groups have made.

Like many other posters, I'm not anti-trans: if someone believes they're of the opposite sex or no sex at all, and that belief is important to them, fine, go ahead and hold it. No-one should be harassed for that belief, nor discriminated against for living their life as best they can in the light of that belief. I don't say that to trivialise the belief. I have friends for whom religious beliefs, e.g. that they have a soul saved by Jesus, is core to their sense of who they are and their purpose in life. I fully support their right to hold that belief and live according to it, up to the point at which they try to make me profess the belief or practice it, or it has other impacts on my life, or infringes the rights of others. E.g. if they were to ask me to affirm that they do, indeed, have a soul saved by Jesus, we'd have a problem. If my workplace were to ask me to state in my email signature which church I go to, if we started workplace meetings with a prayer and a hymn and anyone not singing the hymn was ostracised by colleagues, I would object (hopefully out loud, but depending on the situation I might feel coerced into participating). That wouldn't make me anti-Christian.

In the same way I have no problems with trans-identifying people believing they're of the opposite sex or no sex at all, up until the point at which it impacts on me and/or infringes the rights of others. I'm anti the absolutist way in which, in the name of trans rights, it's become impossible in some places to talk about women's rights, and to defend the protections and provisions that (some) women still need, deserve and have won at cost. If you say that anyone seeking to discuss how to retain those rights is anti-trans, then you're not just being unreasonable, but you're part of the problem, and part of the reason that the conversation has become so 'toxic'.

Do you think a rapist who identifies as a woman should be placed in a women’s prison?

Do you think trans women should compete in women’s sports?

Do you think trans women should be able to attend women’s rape counselling sessions?

I don't think of myself as "pro-" or "anti-" "trans" but consider it an all-or-nothing issue. Either it's possible for a woman to become a man, or it isn't. There's no middle ground. If a man can become a woman for some purposes but not others, then a man can't become a woman.

If it's possible, men who become women should be allowed access to all the same opportunities someone who was born a woman is. The same sports, the same prisons. They have become a woman, they are a woman, they are no different to someone born a woman and must be treated the same.

If it's not possible, then clearly they shouldn't be allowed in a women's prison or play in segregated women's sport. (Personally I believe sport shouldn't be segregated by sex and that women should be allowed to compete against men on equal terms, sport should be about the fastest/strongest winning, but that's a different issue.) They were born a man and are still a man.

It's very simple. We need to legally define whether a person can change sex and gender, and if they can, what steps are required to do this. All other problem are then resolved. It's a very straightforward yes/no question.

It's probably also helpful to note the big picture evidence, which is that the countries that are doing best for women in the world along measures of health, education, wellbeing, economic and political participation, as evidenced by major studies which are referenced by international governments, women's rights groups, health organisations etc are also ones that have policies of gender self-ID.

So if you look at the top performing countries as measured by the Global Women, Peace and Security Index

https://www.prio.org/projects/1767

Or the top performing countries in the Global Gender Gap Report

https://www.weforum.org/publications/global-gender-gap-report-2024/

There is a very high degree of correlation between those counties who are doing best for women and those that have also introduced gender self-id.

How do those who are anti- trans (O I'm sorry, I mean 'pro-women') answer that?

The evidence I can find shows that trans people, in particular trans women, are far more likely to be victims of violent crime than are cis women. So no, I do not agree that trans women are more protected, privileged or powerful. I feel significantly safer as a cis woman, though of course, much more vulnerable than a cis man.

"Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively)."

From: "Gender Identity Disparities in Criminal Victimization: National Crime Victimization Survey, 2017–2018” appears in the American Journal of Public Health

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

Didn't read the thread.
I'm GC but I'm not anti-trans.
The same way I'm an atheist but I'm not anti-believers.
Or that I know that Earth is round, but I don't wish any harm of flat-earthers.

I just don't subscribe to the same belief system, and I don't think their very flawed belief system does any good to society in general, and to girls and women in particular.

You've been corrected on this at least 20 times before, and will be every single time you bring this rubbish up.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Thank you so much everyone for your responses. I have just returned from taking my son to hospital and have had a chance now to read all your posts. There are many different views on here which I respect and will digest (other than those I perceive to be unnecessarily rude). It is really helpful to be given some illumination of the pushback, yet I can also see some heartfelt understanding of the strength of feeling. I think my concern is the Trump approach which seems to have incited such venom and an unthinking mob response. Most of the posts on here have been calm and thoughtful and I respect those perspectives. I apologise to those who have pointed out that I've used the wrong forum here. I didn't realise there were parameters it had always seemed quite broad and open - I'm happy to be enlightened on this. I have had my mind opened today which is what I was looking for. Thank you