To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

All women grow up as girls, and all women are (as children) assumed to be future mothers. That's why they are treated the way they are. They are treated as future mothers - so they have to be caring, and kind, and have baby dolls. They are treated as future mothers - so they have to be attractive to men, and either sweet, twee, and virginal so a man can own them and their children, or sexy and willing to do anything for a man, so a man can impregnate them.

They also have a set of biological processes associated with their sex - either having their period, associated with pain, with fear of being pregnant, with fear of not being pregnant, or with investigations to find out why they aren't having their period. They are weaker physically and have to work out who might beat them up and whether a man they become attracted to will harm them.

No trans identifying male in the history of the world ever went through this. Ever. Even boys who like dollies aged 3 are assumed to be boys, and manly, and allowed to be rumbunctious, and not take account of other people's feelings - especially the girls at their school who don't want them in their loos. Boys will be boys, even if they want to be girls.

Yes, I do mean that one, and your post is illustrative of the attitudes I found so depressing on the thread

So you think transpeople don't have to get informed consent before having sex?

For the love of God can you at least TRY and post something, anything, to back up this shite dump statement. Anything! Receipts, evidence, anything at all. Fucking yawn inducing at this stage.

The sad fact is that male people, however they identify, are far more dangerous than female people. We have years of evidence now to show that women and girls are 9 times more at risk of sexual assault in mixed sex spaces.

We also have years of evidence to show that men who identify as transwomen are just as likely to be predatory as other men - if not more.

Single sex spaces wont keep women and girls safe at all times - any more than seatbelts keep us safe at all times. But we need single sex spaces just like we need seat belts because they are the best solution that society has come up with so far.

My mates who are transwomen stay out of women's toilets and changing rooms etc, because they know that if they come into our spaces they could be opening the door for a bad guy.

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals | The Independent | The Independent

That girl was purely collateral damage for the trans/Mens Rights ideologists. Her needs and rights don't matter.

I'm not anti-trans. To be anti-trans I would have to believe that there was such a thing and I don't.

There are men that pretend to be women, they may have had hormones and operations and they may have lived under that pretence for many years. They are still men. I shouldn't have to and nor will I accept them as women. I will not change my language or words to adapt to these men (or women should it be vice versa.), I will not use their 'preferred pronouns', I will not accept men as women under the guise of 'being kind'. I will not replace my understanding of biological fact with an ideology that is dangerous.

TWAM. Trans-women are men.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Thank you for expressing all the things I was about to try to say. I am 100% behind people of either sex wearing or presenting in ways traditionally associated with the opposite sex. All day long they have my support to dress the way they want and to bust gender stereotypes.

Its not 'anti trans' to not want womens sex-based rights removed, @LifesTooShortForYourNonsense for a male with penis and testicles in a dress.

Do you not understand that women fought long and hard for our safe single sex spaces? And fair sport? What is it that you genuinely cannot see about that?

Every time on this issue when I read such an articulate and brilliant post, then glance at the username, it's no surprise to see @MrsOvertonsWindow . Well said .

@zaxxon not going over it again but sex by deception is a form of sexual assault, and a criminal offence in this country.

It doesn't mean for a second that any of what followed was justified, but people need to be aware that they can't deceive people into sex they wouldn't otherwise have because they think you are the opposite sex, it's not a moral thing to do, and depending on the circumstances (though so far it seems to be mainly women falling foul of the law) might get you a jail sentence.

I don't believe in gender ideology

I want all people to be safe and have access to housing, work, education, healthcare, benefits , etc

I don't believe that gender identities can replace biological sex

Men who think they are women can't make me think so too and shouldn't be allowed to make everyone else pretend they are to the extent that they can access women's spaces

If saying that makes me anti trans oh well. Been called worse and really don't care- the approval of the gender souls gang isn't something I seek

As opposed to your rightwing femphobia and misogyny? 99% of Mumsnet is left wing. Feminism is left wing. Your Mens Rights movement is rightwing, @RanchRat .

I see it very much like religion. People can believe whatever they like about themselves, but don't expect others to believe it too.
It's reasonable that society makes some accommodations to cater to people's beliefs, but not to completely reorganise around them (especially when it is to the detriment of other people).
I think the above statements are perfectly reasonable, but many trans rights activists would consider them as anti-trans. And there's the problem.

I was once subject to “indecent” exposure in a changing village. By a man who claimed he had forgotten his towel! Luckily the police and gym took it seriously.

But I have never used mixed facilities again. I would never use a gym where men who identified as women were allowed in the changing room. This is enforced degradation of women and forcing them to put up with fear, purely to facilitate a man’s wishes. We have single sex spaces for a reason. No one with a penis or had a penis should be allowed in these spaces.

I used to work in a place where I occasionally came across transsexual people. But I'm talking about genuine transsexuals. People who had gone through the entire gamut of requirements to become transsexual. And these people didn't refer to themselves as trans.... they referred to themselves as the newly assigned gender, and lived their lives accordingly without the need to publicise the fact. Genuine transsexuals. It's the deciding you're one thing today and something else tomorrow that gets me. And people can call themselves any of the current ridiculous gender names if they want, but likewise I have the right to not accept it. I will never refer to anyone as a "they" !!! If that makes me anti trans, so be it.

Mental Health supports are required first and foremost for anyone with gender dysphoria, and secondly it is also required for the legislators most of whom are in dire need of it where self ID is law.

Can you point out the methodological flaws in this study please?

It's not 'trans' (although I've yet to see a useful definition of what trans actually means), that most women on Mumsnet feminism forms object to.

It's men appropriating women's rights. We don't say that we don't want trans women in women's spaces because they are trans. It is because they are men. Trans identifying females are obviously still female.

So no it's not anti trans it's pro - women's rights to spaces and sports free from ALL men.

The males who identify as women are currently the most protected group of individuals in this country. They have more privileges than any one else whilst at the same time as pleading to be the most vulnerable.

I can't abide Trump but he is right about this for the wrong reasons. It's a shame the Democrats handed it to him on a plate by effectively destroying women's rights and sports and fawning over males who adopt trans identities.

Oh and as mothers we don't want kids harmed. Especially vulnerable autistic and gay ones, they are being used to prop up these males.

They have nothing in common with them. Lives are being destroyed.

Allowing trans people into women's spaces does open the doors to any male pervert who can chuck on a dress and enter these spaces unchallenged. It undermines women's rights.

Studies have shown that male to female trans people are 6 times more likely to commit crime than biological women, so you are wrong in your assumption.

More than 70 per cent of transgender prisoners are in for sex offences or violent crimes

When we try to define womanhood in order to exclude trans women, we also exclude other women in the process. So I don't believe that this protects women in any way. I think trans people are even more vulnerable than women and the patriarchy harms us all.

This is truly severe gaslighting and DARVO.

You're saying, firstly, that defining womanhood in order to exclude males hurts women? Really? Womanhood by definition, excludes males.

Trans people are the MOST powerful, most privileged and most protected Sacred Caste at the top of the pole, higher than even so-called 'cis' men. That you think a male with penis and testicles in a dress is more 'vulnerable' than ACTUAL females, is beyond sick, disgusting, ignorant and a level of anti-woman brainwashing that really beggars belief.

but I do have issue with the way gov has tried to give them equal rights

Trans do have equal rights.

They want more rights, ie access to all things the opposite have.