That picture of the Southport killer

[User09678]

That has been circulating today.

Remember that sweet boy that was in all the reports at the time? The one who looked about nine?

Can anyone think of any other serious criminal who has pictures of them as a child out in the press?

There is nothing in the public domain that indicates he has any extremist views or is grasping onto extremist ideologies.

I really don't understand why people are continually asserting that there is.

If you want to learn how to kill people, Al-Qaeda manuals help. Even if you don't identify with Al-Qaeda politically.

I work in the biggest court in the uk with 13 year old murderers, you are not allowed to disclose killers who are children until they turn ym17/18 but sometimes the only photos you have of them is school photos!

I am keen to learn this also. ( I appreciate slightly digressing and I repeat that I believe this guy has operated the way he has for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or being a Muslim( I know he is not). Is someone calling him a Muslim incorrectly Islamaphobia?

I'm not trying to catch anyone out.

I really dislike religion full stop. I want to say I dislike religion and how it is capitalised to oppress and control. And nothing will make me more passionate in opposition to religion than when you are silenced for criticism of that religion. I am happy to be corrected if my assumption that Islam is a religion right now, at this moment in time, that individuals are actively discouraged from questioning, criticising in any way through fear of various repercussions.

How confident are you in your belief that this person was motivated by Islamic extremism?

Why would anyone think it is right wing to report that fact?

There has been so much talk about right wing press bias I was preempting the inevitable @PandoraSox

No, 17 is not a child!

Things I have noticed relating to this that I would consider Islamophobia:

• People who have assumed that because this man is black, he must be Muslim
• People who have assumed that because he has committed a horrific multiple murder of children, he must be Muslim

Obviously, no-one has said this directly. But this multiple murder has nothing to do with Islam, so the very fact that Islam has been brought up at all is nothing but Islamophobia.

It is often the case that younger children who do things like carry weapons, attack other children or adults, threaten to kill are treated very lightly.

I have dealt with (as a Deputy Head and now as a Local Authority School Improvement Advisor):
An 11 year old girl who was carrying an 8 inch sharp kitchen knife in her school bag for 6 weeks, and walking behind other children on the way to and from school holding it ready because 'the voices' were telling her to kill them.
A 12 year old boy who had already been accused twice of sexually assaulting other boys when he was 10, who groomed a very vulnerable boy with SEN and sexually assaulted him.
A 11 year old boy who attacked a woman he saw drunk in the street- hitting her over the head with a rounders bat he was carrying- because she was incapacitated and not likely to hit him back and had previously fallen out with his mother.
A group of 6 12-13 year old boys who attacked two staff dropping stones and large bricks over a cliff onto them on a Bank Holiday when they saw them at the coast.
A 12 year old boy who left a PRU returned to his school in a rage and spent half an hour throwing stones at the front door (fortunately locked) kicking and punching the door and kicking and punching and threatening to kill a member of staff (who happened to arrive back from a meeting in the middle of this) .

Not one faced any consequences other than those imposed by the schools. No action was taken by the police although they were called to each incident. Social services were involved but only in minor ways- monitoring/work with child/family.
The girl with the knife simply attended a PRU.

They were all white children, no muslims, one was Polish, the rest were English.

"It is therefore fallacious to state the attack had “nothing” to do with Islamic extremism"

And you said:

"The attack occurs in a context of these recent attacks and it’s nonsense to say it’s nothing to do with Islamic extremism - of course it is."

How confident are you in your belief that this is to do with Islamic extremism? Clearly you believe it is but are you totally confident in this view?

Where were CAMHS?

Ahahhahaaa.

Where CAMHS always are. Nowhere to be bloody well found.

Mental health services are dire. In my job I see children, young people and their families in desperate, desperate need of intervention and MH support. I've seen good, supportive parents so at the end of their tethers mentally and physically as a result of caring for their children that they're hospitalised themselves either through physical stress or their own mental health breakdown. Until the child reaches absolute crisis point there's usually naff all done to help and even at crisis point what's there is usually insufficient. Waiting lists are years long. YEARS.

I don't know the ins and outs of this case but even if his parent were the most engaged parents in the world, unless they had the funds to pay for private psychotherapy (and even then he can't be forced to engage) then they would largely have been on their own. Local authority, education, health, social care intervention? Don't make me laugh.

The system is absolutely broken.

This young man is responsible for own his despicable actions, but if he could've been prevented from developing into this monster by receiving timely help then he - along his family, and more importantly his innocent victims and their families - will have been let down spectacularly.

This is really offensive.

There is no evidence of his religion and definitely no link to suggest religion was the motive. So what was your motivation in describing him as a Christian?

Also as he pleaded guilty there is no explanation of the motive for his action.

I think you need to read the thread.

Also take note that a poster who persistently claimed that Rudakubana is an Islamic extremist has been booted off the site.

Ah, surely this must mean that the US were trying to hide the shame of having to inaugurate Trump behind the Southport trial.

Thanks for your reply. I agree entirely in that I believe this is nothing to do with religion ( if he followed any), I don't believe at all that skin colour equals religious beliefs.

I read a news report where only certain information was provided and vital information omitted. I also believe there is a two tier policing approach in operation in certain areas but this works many ways and is very much against certain ethnic groups also ( probably more so to be fair).

I don't like religion. I don't like Islam. Alot of my attention is on Islam. Are other religions equally as unpalatable and a problem for me because of the censorship factor? This may be so and I am simply not accessing that information.

I think lots of issues are contributing to peoples feelings and beliefs. I can believe many people think like I do. Maybe they don't articulate it well. I really dislike this impetus upon Islamaphobia and feel any incorrect assumptions should just be called out as that.

They didn't have up to date photos at the time. It was said he had changed a great deal in recent times, hadn't even spoken to his parents for goodness knows how long. He didn't look like a child in the school uniform pictures, more like sixteen or so.

Gosh yes the recent photo he looks completely mad, or someone's idea of a mad person. Poor soul. I wonder what medication he is on since his incarceration, meds alter how people look. I saw a lot of that when I was at work.

We are no better off for seeing the photos which are horrific, it doesn't bring those poor children back to life or help their grieving families - neither does it help the killer boy's family who must be going through who knows what. The press are so manipulative.

@LuluBlakey1 I believe what you highlight is important. Nothing to do with religion I believe ( like the case here).
This isn't to tip anyone, but what really could the Police do? If kids are doing this, there's more going on here and how can we address this, if at all.

This case we are discussing - his mental state and co occurring conditions are absolutely behind this. Yes I have no proof right now but I feel quite alot will eventually come out.

This is what he was charged with- why would anyone still speculate that he was a Christian when all the evidence suggests he was likely an Islam extremeist?

He was additionally charged on 29 October with production of a biological toxin, namely ricin, contrary to Section 1 of the Biological Weapons Act 1974; and possessing information, namely a pdf file entitled “Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants: The Al-Qaeda Training Manual” of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, contrary to Section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

@Tittat50 , I really think that Prevent as a scheme would make sense as an educational system in order to provide factual information to kids across the country when they’re still young enough to help. On the other hand there needs to be something completely different set up for boys usually 10 plus who fall deeper and deeper down the violence idealism rabbit hole as the years go by. They need intensive medical psychological intervention before any serious criminal activity takes place. It’s almost like watching a car crash in slow motion with the boys I’ve seen that have this profile. Everyone knows they are going to jail at some point, it’s just a question of if they manage to kill somebody before they do.

How confident are you in your view that he was an Islamic extremist?

Poor soul. He stabbed 3 little girls to death.

Legally in this case it’s the jump from not white + mass killing = Muslim terrorist that is the Islamophobia here. And that started long before the terror charges were known about. It’s what caused people to start attacking Mosques after the Southport attacks. And it’s continuing here with people being unable to let go of the idea this must have been an Islamic attack even though the attacker isn’t even Muslim.

Because:

• Anyone can access the Al-Qaeda Training Manual if determined. They are useful for all wannabe-mass-murderers, whatever their motivations or religious beliefs
• Possession of ricin does not make a person Muslim
• There is zero evidence he had any religious beliefs, nor that religious beliefs motivated his actions
• He was raised a Christian. Now, I suspect that this is irrelevant to his crimes, but it is the only evidence of religion in his life
• There is no indication publicly available that he was part of any extremist groups, religious or otherwise
• While he was referred under the prevent duty, he was never subject to a plan surrounding extremism

I do wish people would read the thread before presenting us with facts that we all know about and have discussed extensively! Anyway, as has been said umpteen times:

Ricin is not the connected with only one type of terrorist.

Being in possession of that manual does not a Muslim make.

@ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot cross post! Yours was much better.