That picture of the Southport killer

[User09678]

That has been circulating today.

Remember that sweet boy that was in all the reports at the time? The one who looked about nine?

Can anyone think of any other serious criminal who has pictures of them as a child out in the press?

It's very possible it was. Yet, what realistically could be done to intervene? His mum will absolutely have known, unless she was completely sidetracked by work,life, other commitments or denial.

We don't know how much she may have been shouting ' please help ' and no one was able to help. Maybe they did listen but resource said sorry doesn't tick enough boxes to intervene. .

I don't know the specific details regards above at this point. More will come out over time.

No evidence then ?

Thought not. Conspiracy nonsense, far-right (ch-ching) bollocks. It’s very clear what circles you move in and where you get your “facts”.

Evidence, let’s go. You said you have “research” - please, copy, paste, share.

Assumptions stated as facts can and should be challenged.

He wasnt released anywhere, he wasnt detained as far as I can see and this was my point earlier about what as a society we want 'done'

Are we arguing that people who develop fantasies and obsession like this need locking up or detaining somewhere without meeting the current threshold for detainment?

Because that would cause a lot of concern to many people.

For conspiracy nutters it's not a coincidence, no. It's a fun internet hobby and exciting to naively suspect some people in government and/or the civil service are in cahoots with our independent judiciary to fix trial dates because of media optics.

For everyone rational and sane, yes obviously, it's a coincidence.
Glad I could help.

I haven't speculated on his diagnosis.

This was the speculation

Or are they saying that having mental health issues can increase the chances of someone carrying out such awful events?

Have there been any white islamic terrorist attacks?

Nicky Reilly: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-46344833 (solo, tried to blow up a restaurant in Exeter)
Richard Dart: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/15/muslim-convert-bbc-documentary-terrorism (part of a group)
Thomas Evans https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-33133896 (joined a jihadi group in Kenya)

@whathaveiforgotten as has been debated an discussed throughout this entire thread - in this instance yes! The left wing press and Kier Starmer desperately tried to deflect from the fact this was probably a racially motivated extremist attack by painting the perp to be a sweet, welsh lad who had been failed by the MH system.

But now we know the original assumptions were right all along…

Assumptions stated as facts can and should be challenged.

Again I haven't claimed they shouldn't be. I just said I didn't think it was a reach for people to initially assume it was a terror attack.

@User09678 did you also doubt the reporting on Kyle Clifford?

Did you ever think it could have been something else?

You seem to be talking about your own biases here - especially a distrust of the media.

What do you think was the motivation for this attack and what makes you think that?

The trial date was set months ago. They set trials according to court and judge availability, and don’t consult worldwide calendars.

The Gvt wouldn’t have known anything about an individual disturbed / violent teen in Southport…until he committed such an atrocity. At which point, once charged, the case becomes sub judice and nothing can be published. So no ‘deciding’ what to tell the public.

I think a hard truth to accept is really there's nothing much we can do with the system we currently have when someone is so damaged/ill/insane to prevent them from committing horrific crimes.

Would CAHMs really have been able to turn this lad around? Doubtful.

We can't incarcerate people on what they 'might' do - well, we can, but it's frowned upon. You hear it all the time with men who abuse their exes then go on to murder them....so many warnings, but what realistically can anybody do? They might get a few months for stalking/whatever, but until they do something horrific they're always going to be let back out to carry on their terror.

I dunno, I'm probably being very defeatist but after working in social services I left feeling that you are just constantly fighting fires with your fingers crossed that they don't escalate into a full blaze. It's rare to feel like you've actually made a difference - the issues are so much bigger than the families you support. Some people are so damaged that no amount of therapy/intervention/support will change their mindset (not speaking about AR here, I don't know his story)

I don't know how big a role social media had in ARs life but imo that's where a lot of this stuff starts. Twitter is full of hate and misinformation, yet is being heralded as a platform of 'free speech'. Until we tighten the reigns on social media companies these seeds of hate will continue to be sown in the minds of 'vulnerable' people - but that poses its own problems of who decides what's misinformation? Look at the likes of Andrew Tate and the platform he has!

There doesn't seem to be an appetite to try to unpick what has happened to turn a young choir boy into a knife-wielding monster. The whole narrative around this case is who can we blame. No 'lessons will be learned'.

Arghhh the whole situation is grim, I'm feeling really shitty and helpless about everything today

That's not speculating about his diagnosis.

I assume that they only release custody photos after a verdict, he pled guilty today (which has thankfully spared the families the hell of a trial). The photo has not been suppressed, it is procedure not to show custody shots before or during a trial simply because the person may be found not guilty, I agree that is a horrendous and disturbing photo but there is no conspiracy going on

''All behaviour is communication'' - but only to a point, surely.

It's a modern mantra that people love to trot out when a child is being difficult, but less so when an adult is being difficult.

But when does '' communication'' become inappropriate?

If someone's husband is beating them, no one says ''All behaviour is communication'' -it tends to be used only on {younger} children.

@samarrange by attack I meant a plot that had come to fruition on our soil. I perhaps was wrong to assume that was clear.

Except the initial assumptions weren’t right and they don’t become any more right when repeated ad nauseam.

Every criminal! Every last one, if 16 & commiting crime the photo given to DM is when they are 8.

For me the bigger issue is how do you stop this type of violence and ensure there aren't more deaths. Will an inquiry really change anything?

It will have been one that a picture editor on a newspaper / website found (possibly a reporter). They aren't necessarily easy to come by.

That's not speculating about his diagnosis.

Who are you referring to as having mental health issues in that post?

I mean it's one person we're discussing here.

Is that true? Are they not able to release the picture they take on arrest until after the trial or a guilty plea? Why not, when the suspect's identity has already been released and there will be numerous pictures circulating in the press and on the internet anyway? I assumed the police released that picture of him at school but perhaps you are correct that it was picked up by the media as soon as his name was made public.