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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That picture of the Southport killer

1000 replies

User09678 · 20/01/2025 17:11

That has been circulating today.

Remember that sweet boy that was in all the reports at the time? The one who looked about nine?

Can anyone think of any other serious criminal who has pictures of them as a child out in the press?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Tittat50 · 20/01/2025 18:50

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 20/01/2025 18:47

He did not have a mental health issue,

His behaviour suggests otherwise don't you think!

soupfiend · 20/01/2025 18:50

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 18:12

You keep talking about his referral to Prevent seemingly frustrated they did not do something.

You are misunderstanding me. I think it's wrong that if his motive for mass murder, schools massacre etc was terror related then Prevent would have escalated the referral. But because it wasn't terror motivated it was all fine, no risk here. It's not right that someone who was clearly a threat fell through the net because his motivations didn't tick the check box. You don't have to agree though.

What do you think would or should have been done if he 'didnt fall through the net'?

What systems do you think the UK has to deal with (and I dont know what your definition of deal with, would be), people who walk among us, who fantasise about killing people and who use any death manual (in his case one from Al Qaida) to learn about how to cause death effectively

What would you have done with this person if you had the decision making powers?

EasternStandard · 20/01/2025 18:50

If a child is simply badly brought up, that is one thing but this young person is clearly not well, not wired right you might say, he has a number of conditions which has led him to be focussed and obsessed with violence and killing. No amount of parenting is going to change that for him

Where have you read about the conditions?

luckylavender · 20/01/2025 18:50

Trikey · 20/01/2025 17:40

Axel Rudakubana had been reported to Prevent three times. He was known to the authorities. The police will have known very quickly who had carried out this crime. That information will have been made known to the Home Secretary and Prime Minister within hours. They knew he was not a choirboy from Wales. The vacuum of information and misinformation led to the riots.

Stop being so irresponsible

Scenicgirl · 20/01/2025 18:50

SilenceInside · 20/01/2025 17:29

I think it's incorrect to think there's a motive behind which pictures were "released". Before the guilty plea the press would be using any pictures they could find in the public domain. Once the guilty verdicts were given the police are able to release the images from the arrest. That's all it is.

Ahh yes, that would be it 🙄

WeCantGoOverIt · 20/01/2025 18:50

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 20/01/2025 18:47

He did not have a mental health issue,

This

Figgygal · 20/01/2025 18:50

NoSoupForU · 20/01/2025 18:40

This post is in incredibly poor taste.

The trial date was set before Trump's inauguration date was set. That he pled guilty at a pretrial hearing was unexpected. There really isn’t a full presence in court for such hearings because they're something of a nothing.
No conspiracy there.

Mug shots aren't released until guilt is proven precisely because they're photographs taken of people in situations of extreme stress so typically they won't exactly look tip top.

The picture that was circulated at the time was taken from social media. It was a group photo taken in school. By all accounts his family didn't really use social media so there wasn't really anything else for the media to find and use.

He isn't an Islamic extremist. He isn't even Muslim. He's a black Christian.

People did notice the red flags. He was referred to Prevent multiple times because of his fixation with violence. By all accounts there was involvement from the authorities at various points preceeding his crime too. There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that his home was anything other than stable and loving. His elder brother thrived, was seemingly a very intelligent high achiever who was popular at school.

Whether he has mental health issues I do not know. I'd assume his behaviour isn't exactly indicative of somebody mentally well, but I'm not an expert.

And as for the riots, there is no excuse for the violence portrayed by people who did not know or understand the facts, but merely used it as a vehicle to push their agenda against foreign people and those with brown skin.

For all the conspiracy theorists and daily mail readers on this thread take heed of above posters sensible take on this terrible crime.
Just glad he's pled guilty and families and surviving victims won't need to be subjected to the hell of a trial.
An enquiry has been called - Labour aren't scared or hiding anything here despite all the hysteria to the contrary.
Hadn't they been in charge about 3 weeks when this happened?

whydoihavetowork · 20/01/2025 18:51

This whole case shows everything that's wrong with mental health care in this country, growing up in the 80's there was always outcry about "care in the community" and closing asylums etc and 40 years on you can see exactly why.
We need to be able to distinguish between people who are a risk to others and people who have MH issues that can be controlled and are not a risk. One size does not fit all.

Re the photo - this is a non issue. The first photo in circulation will just be what a journalist found on Facebook or whatever. The new photo - you don't have to be a MH expert to see an issue. All this and the info about teachers needing police with them etc just compounds it all, why is someone like this allowed to roam free when known as a violent risk?

NoSoupForU · 20/01/2025 18:51

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 18:41

The entire basis of the claim that he was a Muslim seems to be based on the fact that he had a copy of the Al Qaeda training manual.

Do you not think the specifics of the attack was in part why people assumed it was terror related initially? Targeted young girls, knives, lone wolf etc.

No. It was because he has brown skin and was reported (incorrectly) to have been a young Muslim male.

cakeorwine · 20/01/2025 18:51

WeCantGoOverIt · 20/01/2025 18:50

This

What evidence have you got to support that statement?

NetZeroZealot · 20/01/2025 18:51

Trikey · 20/01/2025 17:29

I'm more concerned with who decided to have that trial today to hide it against the inauguration of Trump,
And what the Prime Minister and Home Secretary knew about this evil person, when they knew it and what they decided to tell the public.

You do realise that the new government had only been in power for a couple of weeks when the attack took place? Or are you referring to the previous Tory administration?

Floogal · 20/01/2025 18:51

Similar to the Venables and Thompson pictures that were released in 1993. Innocent and cheeky looking boys. But terrifying when you know what they did.

EsmaCannonball · 20/01/2025 18:51

I hope the fact that there will be no trial doesn't shut down questions into this case. This was someone on the radar of the authorities, referred to Prevent several times, and yet still able to commit the worst of crimes. The terrorism narrative was quashed instantly, allowing anyone who raised it to be labelled a right-wing bigot, and then the information about the terrorism charges and the ricin was slipped out quietly later. The public don't like it when they feel like they are being managed rather than told the truth just because that truth raises verboten issues.

WeCantGoOverIt · 20/01/2025 18:52

MrsSchrute · 20/01/2025 18:50

I think this shows that there needs to be massive investment (not that there is any money!) into children's mental health, support for neurodiversity etc, so that things don't get this far.

More blaming people with neurodiversity for violent crimes. You are being incredibly offensive. Stop it.

PeppyGreenFinch · 20/01/2025 18:52

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 18:41

The entire basis of the claim that he was a Muslim seems to be based on the fact that he had a copy of the Al Qaeda training manual.

Do you not think the specifics of the attack was in part why people assumed it was terror related initially? Targeted young girls, knives, lone wolf etc.

Targeted young girls, knives, lone wolf etc.

That could almost describe half the mass school massacres in the US.

The high school massacres were also something Axel was obsessed with.

Lilactimes · 20/01/2025 18:53

Figgygal · 20/01/2025 18:50

For all the conspiracy theorists and daily mail readers on this thread take heed of above posters sensible take on this terrible crime.
Just glad he's pled guilty and families and surviving victims won't need to be subjected to the hell of a trial.
An enquiry has been called - Labour aren't scared or hiding anything here despite all the hysteria to the contrary.
Hadn't they been in charge about 3 weeks when this happened?

both these posts are so well written IMO

Winter2020 · 20/01/2025 18:53

JHound · 20/01/2025 18:28

It was not terror related. For it to be terror related there has to be motive. Why is that hard to understand?

Yes he had an Al Qaeda manual which is an offence under the law. But he had also accessed information about the IRA.

There is no evidence he was aligned with either the IRA nor Al Qaeda.

He was referred to prevent because of his obsession with death and violence but due to complete lack of terror ideology Prevent deemed it was not part of their remit.

And keep up - there is not going to be a trial. He pled guilty today.

Edited

So you believe it is a complete coincidence that he attacked a Taylor Swift themed dance class?

Just random chance? Could just as easily have been a chess club?

Utter gaslighting nonsense.

luckylavender · 20/01/2025 18:53

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 17:50

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/20/father-stopped-southport-killer-axel-rudakubana-taking-taxi-to-ex-school-days-before-attack

"Neighbours said they saw police cars outside the family home “half a dozen” times in the weeks before he attacked the Hart Space centre, 5 miles away."

How on earth did he slip through the system.

Random neighbours?

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 18:53

No. It was because he has brown skin and was reported (incorrectly) to have been a young Muslim male.

I'm sure that was also a factor. I think given recent history if people read about a mass stabbing or tube bomb many people think it's a terror attack. in the same way in the 70s a car bomb would be assumed to be the IRA.

WeCantGoOverIt · 20/01/2025 18:53

NoSoupForU · 20/01/2025 18:51

No. It was because he has brown skin and was reported (incorrectly) to have been a young Muslim male.

As opposed to blaming people with neurodiversity or poor mental health you mean? Because they go out and murder people all the time….?

MadeInBarnstaple · 20/01/2025 18:54

Legal UK definition of terrorism (my bold):

The Terrorism Act 2000 defines terrorism, both in and outside of the UK, as the use or threat of one or more of the actions listed below, and where they are designed to influence the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.
The specific actions included are:

  • serious violence against a person;
  • serious damage to property;
  • endangering a person's life (other than that of the person committing the action);
  • creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public; and
  • action designed to seriously interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
The use or threat of action, as set out above, which involves the use of firearms or explosives is terrorism regardless of whether or not the action is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public. Action includes action outside the United Kingdom. It is important to note that in order to be convicted of a terrorism offence a person doesn't actually have to commit what could be considered a terrorist attack. Planning, assisting and even collecting information on how to commit terrorist acts are all crimes under British terrorism legislation.

Rudakubana collected weapons - physical and biological - and had mentioned on more than one occasion that he wanted to carry out a school massacre. Was that a threat designed to instil fear or just a statement of intent? The CPS (above) specifically mention the threat to use explosives or firearms being terrorism, but no mention of biological agents. That may just be an oversight because it doesn’t make sense they’d be excluded - they’re hardly less dangerous!

If Rudakubana’s statement that he wanted to commit a school massacre was seen as a factual statement and not a threat, then maybe it wouldn’t reach the standard for being terrorism-by-threat because he wasn’t trying to instil fear, he was just reporting what he hoped to do. Mad if that’s the case, but there you go.

Supposedly he hasn’t given a reason (not reported in the MSM anyway) for the attack that mentions doing it for/because of X, Y or Z, where those are religious, political or ideological aims. So doesn’t fit that definition of terrorism.

Rudakubana DID commit serious violence against persons, he DID endanger a person’s life and he DID create a serious risk to the safety of the public when he produced ricin. But - if he didn’t do those things with an ideological, religious or political motive, then it doesn’t fit the given definition of terrorism.

HOWEVER if producing ricin and intending to use it on the public is in the same bracket as firearms and explosives, then the intention to use it is terrorism even if he didn’t go through with it.

I think that this case has shown we have gaping holes in our definition of terrorism. This case may lead to a broadening of the definitions to include the intention to or act of, harming the public for an unspecified reason or aim, where the act is clearly not personal or retributional.

NOTE: I’m not a lawyer and have no legal training, so the above is my personal interpretation and may not be how it would be viewed by the legal profession.

Terrorism | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism

battairzeedurgzome · 20/01/2025 18:54

Trikey · 20/01/2025 17:29

I'm more concerned with who decided to have that trial today to hide it against the inauguration of Trump,
And what the Prime Minister and Home Secretary knew about this evil person, when they knew it and what they decided to tell the public.

Nothing has been hidden. The trial was listed to start tomorrow, but was pre-empted by a late decision on the part of the offender to plead guilty. And the hearing would have been a leading news item in the UK irrespective of what was happening elsewhere in the world.

WeCantGoOverIt · 20/01/2025 18:54

cakeorwine · 20/01/2025 18:51

What evidence have you got to support that statement?

What? You prefer to blame ND people instead?

Coldanddamp · 20/01/2025 18:54

@luckylavender presumably they were well defined ones!

Tittat50 · 20/01/2025 18:55

Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 20/01/2025 18:48

If he was searching US mass school shootings from age 13 then he needed serious mental health intervention. Where were CAMHS for a start? He clearly needed substantial psychiatric intervention from a young age. It's clear there were significant and repeated failings here by all involved.

The provision is not fit for purpose. The provision for young people with any MH struggles is beyond useless in a high proportion of cases. I say this with absolute confidence.
It does not mean I blame CAHMS. The public resources are just not there and have been stripped to the bone over the last 10 plus years .

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