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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do DH and I need power of attorney for each other?

133 replies

Midlifecareerchange · 14/01/2025 16:51

Inspired by the AIBU about the benefits of marriage.

Dh and I have mirror wills. Our solicitor has now suggested power of attorney forms and I'm trying to figure out if there's any downside. It feels really wrong to me to sign anything that would give away my rights and power financially or in the case of healthcare, even if those things are hard to invoke and need to be signed off by medical professionals. I think of all those women who got carted off to asylums in the past when they got a bit grouchy and troublesome. I'm very grouchy at times 😬 DH and I are early 50s. I thought it was something you do in your old age if losing your marbles.

We have some assets in joint accounts and some in separate. We both have logins for both just in case needed. We are married.

YABU: sign the forms
YANBU: don't sign them

and yes I will also clarify the pros and cons with said solicitor when I get a chance.

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 15/01/2025 08:11

LPAs aren't a magic bullet but they help.

My DM no longer has capacity but this has been a sharp decline over the space of a few months. LPAs are in place but as there has not been time for an assessment (successive health crises) she still had to agree to moving into a care home and signing the DD for the fees.

Having had to bear witness to DMs decline my takeaways are that DH and I will be putting LPAs in place in the next few weeks.

In addition I will be making an Advanced Directive which is that I do not wish to be given any treatment other than palliative unless I am able to give informed consent.

Some if this is about personality, I am always the first to leave a party. My view is that I would rather leave the party too soon than too late.

ThatsWhatImTalkinAbout · 15/01/2025 09:11

Darksideofthemoonshine · 15/01/2025 00:09

Not RTWT.

Actually, I would not get POA. If you lose capacity, the OPG would appoint a deputy. The amount of people I have seen get utterly screwed over friends and family as POA, I would opt for a deputy every time.

Ok so, I know someone who’s wife has dementia. PoA was never sought. Now, they are living in a nightmare because the husband cannot make Dr appointments, access money, and trying to get assessments is impossible because regardless of her losing capacity, without PoA no-one else can step in and make her do anything. They can offer them, but she can refuse them which is this persons case. She needs to be in a Care Home as she has become aggressive, and regularly escapes from home, but without PoA in place, no-one can make that decision for her. It is a terrible situation for the family.
The guardianship route you are referring to is a huge long drawn out affair that can take up to 2 years to obtain plus it is limited in what powers can be used.
PoA can be setup ready to go within 3-4 months while the person still has capacity.

PermanentTemporary · 15/01/2025 09:27

'without PoA no-one else can step in and make her do anything'

I am 100% pro POA but in theory at least, this isn't exactly true - decisions can be made for someone who lacks mental capacity for that decision, they can be made in best interests by a team or a doctor etc. I agree though that it can be really difficult to get people to step up and make those decisions, leaving the carer with all the responsibility but zero ability to take action.

Sparkleandglitter · 15/01/2025 10:25

Midlifecareerchange · 14/01/2025 18:10

This is all very helpful.

Yes that's what I assumed re logins. It was actually DH's Tesco login I used when he was ill- didn't need the banking as all our bills come out of a joint account anyway.

more specific examples of healthcare decisions would be very helpful if anyone doesn't mind, as I gather people think it's a good thing generally but I'm still feeling a bit unwilling to do that one. I like to manage my healthcare on a case by case basis and I'm very prone to rejecting advice but would always want to choose myself.

A POA will only kick in when you can’t choose yourself. If you’re in a position to make your own decisions then your attorney doesn’t have any say and you’re the one that makes the choice.
POA for healthcare is only applicable when you no longer have capacity (usually due to lack of consciousness or severe psychiatric/neurological disorders).

Whoever you designate as a POA is more likely to have some idea what your wishes would be than a health/social care professional. Professionals will act in your best interest, and take your relatives views into account when making decisions but they obviously won’t have the background that helps them under what your preferences might be (especially if they’re contrary to medical advice).
Also, without a POA it can be very difficult to know which family members opinions best represent the views of the patient (sadly there cases where family members don’t agree what the best course of treatment is or occasionally there are complex dynamics which mean that some family members don’t have the patient’s best interests at heart). By making a POA you’re choosing who is best placed and most suitable to make these decisions in the event that you can’t.

You can include your wishes/instructions as part of the POA (which has a legal effect) or just have a chat with whoever you’ve designated about what your broad preferences would be (e.g. carers at home vs care home, whether you want vaccinations, or when you’d want to stop treatment if you have a terminal condition).

taxguru · 15/01/2025 10:38

PermanentTemporary · 15/01/2025 07:30

IIRC my mum's boyfriend was her certificate provider. Much easier than getting her GP to do it. They mustn't be an employee and have to have known them for two years or more. The will isn't an issue, though he wasn't in her will either.

Her boyfriend isn't eligible to have been her certificate provider. The POA may not be valid. As per the gov.uk website...

"Who cannot be the certificate provider?

  • an unmarried partner, boyfriend or girlfriend of the donor or any of the attorneys"
PermanentTemporary · 15/01/2025 10:43

Ah... I'll have to look back and see if it was him.

Mischance · 15/01/2025 11:00

I organised and applied for our PoAs myself. The website takes you through the process in detail and it is not difficult - you just have to be very methodical about the order in which things are signed. They are also very helpful on the phone when needed.

We had both types of PoA - Finance and Health/Welfare.

There is a fee, but the means-tested reductions in that are very generous as they only take into account income and not savings. We had a hefty reduction. Not using a solicitor (which is unnecessary) also save a large chunk of money.

My late OH and I named each other, and also 2 of our DDs. A friend countersigned for us - she was a doctor, as was my OH.

The moment when the PoA really came into its own was when my OH was acutely ill (on top of his existing neurodegeneration) and they wanted to cart him off to hospital for lots of invasive treatments in order to prolong his misery. I was able to override this and he died gently and peacefully over the next few days.

I would strongly recommend getting PoAs.

Tootiredmummyof3 · 15/01/2025 11:12

We did it last year for my parents (and we left it bloody close as they were in their 70s and my mum just diagnosed with dementia). And you do need someone independent to agree the person is no longer capable of making their own decision/being in charge of their money.
I suggested MIL did it too, which she agreed to eventually.
DH and I haven't done it. We don't even have wills but I keep thinking we should. We're in our 40s so DH says theres no need but age isn't a guarantee.

ThatsWhatImTalkinAbout · 15/01/2025 12:14

PermanentTemporary · 15/01/2025 09:27

'without PoA no-one else can step in and make her do anything'

I am 100% pro POA but in theory at least, this isn't exactly true - decisions can be made for someone who lacks mental capacity for that decision, they can be made in best interests by a team or a doctor etc. I agree though that it can be really difficult to get people to step up and make those decisions, leaving the carer with all the responsibility but zero ability to take action.

What if that person refuses to attend a Drs appointment or refuses a house visit?
When any Dr or MH assessor has attempted to visit my friend’s wife (No PoA) who clearly has lost full capacity she runs away upstairs and locks herself in the bathroom. She cannot be forced to speak to anyone. The assessor just leaves and that’s the end of it. The only thing SS can do is apply for Guardianship that can take up to 2 years to obtain. But until that is done, nothing can be forced on that person.
It’s a huge problem that most don’t fully understand until they are in the deep end of it.

Midlifecareerchange · 15/01/2025 13:06

Thanks all. I'm going to sign them. Going with the advice to do one at a time to avoid mixing up the paperwork.

OP posts:
BruFord · 15/01/2025 15:26

Darksideofthemoonshine · 15/01/2025 01:38

Why risk it? Many families also act misguidedly - you only have to look at recent threads on here to see that. People wanting to invest their loved one's money in risky things that they have no right to - not realising the legal ramifications of their role as POA.

Also to another pp - it's not "the state" that steps in. It's a court appointed deputy.

@Darksideofthemoonshine I appreciate what you’re saying, but I still think that many families do make good decisions on their relatives’ behalf's.

One of my joint attorneys is a solicitor so I’m confident that he’ll guide me on the legal side.

Elsvieta · 15/01/2025 17:56

taxguru · 15/01/2025 10:38

Her boyfriend isn't eligible to have been her certificate provider. The POA may not be valid. As per the gov.uk website...

"Who cannot be the certificate provider?

  • an unmarried partner, boyfriend or girlfriend of the donor or any of the attorneys"

What's the certificate provider? I have LPA for my parents; they decided they wanted to do it, I agreed verbally and then their solicitor sent me the papers to sign. Is the solicitor the "certificate provider"?

Badbadbunny · 15/01/2025 18:52

Elsvieta · 15/01/2025 17:56

What's the certificate provider? I have LPA for my parents; they decided they wanted to do it, I agreed verbally and then their solicitor sent me the papers to sign. Is the solicitor the "certificate provider"?

It's the person who signs to confirm that the person is mentally capable of understanding what they're agreeing to.

Wingedharpy · 15/01/2025 19:19

I've not long since done mine.

Forms are all on line and very simple to complete - and no solicitors fees necessary.
Mine simply comprise of my name and address and signature, and those of both my attorneys and the certificate provider/witness.

There are no instructions whatsoever written on it to say if this happens do A and B, if that happens do C and D etc etc as life is ever evolving.

Instead, I typed out a couple of A4 sheets of paper, outlining where all "important" documents are etc etc., and a broad outline of my wishes should this, that or the other occur.

My attorneys have these documents and we have sat down together and gone through it all - funeral arrangements, dementia care, what if I have a stroke etc etc.

I've also been able to stress to my attorneys that as long as they are acting in good faith - and I trust them implicitly to do this, otherwise they wouldn't be my attorneys -then there are no wrong decisions.

Communication is key and the attorneys should have a good understanding of you as a person IMHO.

Notsandwiches · 15/01/2025 19:23

I used to work in the OPG. Seriously, every adult should have LPAs. No one plans on a car accident, heart attack or stroke but they happen to ordinary people like you. No LPA and no one can access your finances without applying for deputyship.

HungryBored · 15/01/2025 19:36

My brother and I have them for our elderly parents. They have still got capacity but we have activated the financial PoAs to do their bills and finances legally for them as they struggle. All the online stuff is just too much for them.

My husband and I also have them for each other and we are early fifties. If we both lose capacity we have named our young adult kids as attorneys.

HungryBored · 15/01/2025 19:39

HardyAnt · 14/01/2025 18:23

Those who have a POA in place, have you used the online government one, rather than doing it via a solicitor?

We did all of ours ourselves using the online system. Lawyers charge £1k upwards I have heard. No mistakes made and it went through ok.

HungryBored · 15/01/2025 19:45

hoteltango · 15/01/2025 00:00

Every so often, usually because of a thread like this one, I have yet another look at the paperwork. DH and I are in our 70s so we really need to get on with this.

I have to admit that I've not given it much thought lately, mostly because all our bank accounts are joint, so if either of us were to become incapacitated then the other could still access those. But I hadn't thought about other things that posters have mentioned, such as selling our property, or even that all the bills are in DH's name so I could find problems there.

I find the very specific order of signing and witnessing quite complicated, and that puts me off doing anything, especially in terms of who could act as our certificate providers. However, we're seeing our solicitor soon, on another matter, so I could ask if they could sort it out for us.

Thanks for posting, OP. A very timely reminder to not put this off any longer.

Just take your time. It’s tedious rather than complicated. Come and report back here once you have done it! Just as motivation. And avoid paying the solicitor to do it!

luckylavender · 15/01/2025 19:57

We've just done ours with our DC too. We are early 60s. My mother died in Dec 2023 & I had them for both parents, although I hadn't done them long, They have been a total godsend dealing with everything for my elderly fragile grieving father.

LadyLolaRuben · 15/01/2025 19:57

You CAN activate POA even when you have capacity BUT only with your permission. For example Ive been out the country and needed paperwork signing urgently, so my POA signed on my behalf with my express permission in writing. Its really helpful

Marshbird · 15/01/2025 20:01

I’ve had LPOA since 40s….but then it was rammed home to me by mental health professionals when my husband suddenly become with seriously unwell with mental illness. Luckily he wasn’t sectioned and not deemed mental incapacitated so we never had to invoke them, but it forced some difficult conversations and we both benefitted form thst and security of the LPOAs being in place if needed

heres what you need to know…

the stakes are hard for activating the LPOA- doctors have to be sure your mental incapacity is prolonged enough for someone to have to make decisions for you, and that you lack thst compntency entirely. It’s not enough to say you might make dud decisions, you need to be incapable of understanding what you need to make decisions on.

without LPOA if your dh was in permenant vegativrcstate form an accident, and you wanted to move home to find somewhere to nurse him at home , you can’t move or sell home without jumping though huge hoops. This isn’t a common example but there are literally hundreds of people facing this sort of stuff, like wanting to downsize when there spouse enters a nursing home with dementia.

if your NEED to get POA once someone has lost mental capacity you can’t. You have to apply for something called a “deputy”. This is expensive. More to point it also requires on going fees as you are answerable, and have to submit forms to the office of guardianship. In other words they will review what you do . No one wants this. It is messy, expensive and complicated and more work. Trying to even get this when you are already in a crisis caring for someone who has lost capacity is a bloody nightmare

you do NOT have to have just your dh as attorney. You can appoint who you want. You can appoint multiple attorney to act together or act for different things. So, my exh was one of my attorney on health and welfare one, but bloody hell I wasn’t going to leave it to him as a bloke to make decisions on my care needs , he’s fecking crap with medical stuff and not good dealing with ill people. So I had him AND my SIL acting jointly (a nurse and with hospice experience previously ). I also had expression of wishes to also consult with my niece (also in care sector). It’s up to you. A mirror LPOA is not necessarily what you want or need. Don’t let solicitor do that at stroke of pen - having 2 attorneys is often better for the, too..think about how the one attorney would feel having to make final decision on their own to turn off life support? same goes with financial and legal POA, you can appoint 2 attorneys. Yep, as married one of them needs to be husband as you have joint assets. But even with just him you can write a detailed “expresssion of wishes” within the LPOA telling him what to do if you can’t . You need to have flexibility, but guidance can be strong

the expression of wishes addendum approach is also useful for care and welfare. Write what you want if it comes to care homes. God it’s hard to face up to, but once you’ve experienced a loved one in nursing home you bloody well know what you’d want and not want if possible.

LPOA are also not a on off switch. My parent had a LPOA in place for 20 years with one of my siblings to give him access to his current account and some other decision things, as parent lived abroad most of year. Sibling was looking after his house, paying bills and generally managing for him . when parent, 20 years later, had LBD, thst same POA came into full operation, it needed doctors sign off though, and sibling took over entirely. It’s flexible to needs.

I’ve seen this working when parents are elderly, getting confused with modern tech and banking apps etc. the attorney can work alongside parent helping and having their own access to banks. In these cases the attorney will have their one logins, card etc that will show clearly what they’ve done vs the parent via eaches login and PREVENT the issue you have of sharing passwords which no one will be able to understand if you or your dh made a transaction - that’s why you shouldn’t share passwords.

I divorced my husband, now my dc are joint attorneys on my LPOA, along with SIL still on health, and now one of my siblings on finance as my ex are still relatively young and inexperienced in financial things (eg not yet homeowners etc)

as for your DH packaging you off to lunatic asylum? I couldn’t get my exh sectioned under mental health act even after running after me in my home with a knife. OK, he was hallucinating but he could have still injured me or one of are then teenage kids. There are no beds in mental hospital unless you are about to kill yourself or someone else. A section order is now hard to get, the qualifying guidelines have been strengthened to assume everyone must be given autonomy to make their own decisions unless it’s dangerous. My parent was allowed to wander into other nursing home residents rooms at night unchecked, because otherwise it would have interfered with his self autonomy fgs (😡🤬🤯), just becuase he was deemed not a danger. And as for locking you away in that ward for years 🤣🤣🤣..there’s this approach to mental illness treatment called “care in the community”..I know form 20 years experience it better called “Drug and dump” , get the patient stable on drugs, put them on maintenance dose, dump them back home with family as carers, and watch the whole family fall apart with the strain. Honestly, I’d be way more concnered about the impact on my marriage and relationship if I was married still and became mentally impaired and how my dh would bloody cope without abandoning me and running away himself!

op, it’s right to be wary and fully investigate. LPOA is not the same as the old one enduring POA. they’re flexible, they’re forward planning in case the worse happens. They drive really good conversations with you and dh about what you want if, gods forbid, the worse happens. Ifvyou leave it, when you need it , it will be too late for our loved ones and cause so much additional stress and pain. Don’t do it to them. Don’t do it to you.

Marshbird · 15/01/2025 20:13

hoteltango · 15/01/2025 00:00

Every so often, usually because of a thread like this one, I have yet another look at the paperwork. DH and I are in our 70s so we really need to get on with this.

I have to admit that I've not given it much thought lately, mostly because all our bank accounts are joint, so if either of us were to become incapacitated then the other could still access those. But I hadn't thought about other things that posters have mentioned, such as selling our property, or even that all the bills are in DH's name so I could find problems there.

I find the very specific order of signing and witnessing quite complicated, and that puts me off doing anything, especially in terms of who could act as our certificate providers. However, we're seeing our solicitor soon, on another matter, so I could ask if they could sort it out for us.

Thanks for posting, OP. A very timely reminder to not put this off any longer.

Absolutely agree that the process of LPOA yourself is painful, especially signature bit …especially if your attorneys aren’t living in same town.

I have often said to people that I found petitioning for a divorce, some years later, was easier. Much easier. You could argue too bloody easy! governemnt have made that process bloody brilliant and no need of solicitor and really simple.

id even say selling a house is easier, or passport application or Anything else.

but, if you are careful, meticulous and check and check agian you CAN do it without recourse to solicitor. So, whislt I agree, don’t let that put others on here or the OP get put off. You DONT have to use solicitor. Be careful. Take your time. Be prepared to swear a bit. But you will be able to do it,

(wish governemnt would review the forms and process like the divorce site though….)

Marshbird · 15/01/2025 20:20

Wingedharpy · 15/01/2025 19:19

I've not long since done mine.

Forms are all on line and very simple to complete - and no solicitors fees necessary.
Mine simply comprise of my name and address and signature, and those of both my attorneys and the certificate provider/witness.

There are no instructions whatsoever written on it to say if this happens do A and B, if that happens do C and D etc etc as life is ever evolving.

Instead, I typed out a couple of A4 sheets of paper, outlining where all "important" documents are etc etc., and a broad outline of my wishes should this, that or the other occur.

My attorneys have these documents and we have sat down together and gone through it all - funeral arrangements, dementia care, what if I have a stroke etc etc.

I've also been able to stress to my attorneys that as long as they are acting in good faith - and I trust them implicitly to do this, otherwise they wouldn't be my attorneys -then there are no wrong decisions.

Communication is key and the attorneys should have a good understanding of you as a person IMHO.

This is such a good point to make.

TALKING to your attorneys to be, before you sign your LPOA and associated expression of wishes is so important, and important to then have another conversation whenever you change expression of wishes (I see this as “living document “). My attorneys have copies in their homes, know what I want, roll their eyes a bit as they’re young and “oh bloody hell mum you’re such a pessimism” but it’s out there, they know what I want and what I need . I changed my health and welfare expressions of wishes fundamentally after going though having parent with Lewy body dementia. Realised I was hopelessly naive in provisions versions. Much more realistic now - though that’s a bit depressing in reality.

TALKING to your attorneys is crucial.

BruFord · 15/01/2025 20:48

@Marshbird This sounds ridiculous, but my Dad and I arranged to get the signatures for his LPA on the day of a family funeral! We knew that everyone involved would be coming so it was the easiest way to get it done.

They understood, it was far better to have a short meeting then than try to find another date/time that worked for everyone.

MereDintofPandiculation · 15/01/2025 21:11

Midlifecareerchange · 14/01/2025 18:56

And to clarify yes I understand things that might lead to loss of capacity such as stroke, brain injury, dementia. It's the types of healthcare decisions that those things might lead to that I'm not so clear on

My father, in a nursing home, acquired a chest infection which necessitated a call to out of hours doctor, who wanted him transferred to hospital, but felt he had little chance of survival had PoA and knew my father’s views on hospitals, how confused he would be, and how difficult it would be for him to cope with the level of care in a hospital. I was able to keep him in the nursing home where he was comfortable. Without PoA, the doctor would not have accepted my words as representing my father’s wishes or best interests.

Stroke/brain injury - at what point would you want life support switched off? Would you treatment to save your life if quality of life was severely compromised?

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