Do DH and I need power of attorney for each other?

[Midlifecareerchange]

Inspired by the AIBU about the benefits of marriage.

Dh and I have mirror wills. Our solicitor has now suggested power of attorney forms and I'm trying to figure out if there's any downside. It feels really wrong to me to sign anything that would give away my rights and power financially or in the case of healthcare, even if those things are hard to invoke and need to be signed off by medical professionals. I think of all those women who got carted off to asylums in the past when they got a bit grouchy and troublesome. I'm very grouchy at times 😬 DH and I are early 50s. I thought it was something you do in your old age if losing your marbles.

We have some assets in joint accounts and some in separate. We both have logins for both just in case needed. We are married.

YABU: sign the forms
YANBU: don't sign them

and yes I will also clarify the pros and cons with said solicitor when I get a chance.

I know of a situation where someone was unexpectedly incapacitated in their forties leaving them unable to communicate. It has been a nightmare for their spouse for any situation where the call centre wants to speak to the account holder and they often get stuck in a “computer says no” situation because the alternatives of communicating by email or letter just don’t get answered like a phone call.

I’ve activated PoAs for my mum - I did the finance one with her bank while she was compos mentis as she was losing her sight and wanted me to deal with her paperwork, and this was allowed because of the box ticked on the LPoA form. But I only did exactly what she asked and only took over making decisions relatively recently when it became clear her capacity had gone.

you can leave explicit instructions in both forms, but you do have to trust your attorney(s) to follow your wishes and act in your best interests. I think it also helps to make sure you have communicated those wishes to other loved ones so that everyone is clear, especially if they relate to your wishes on healthcare in the event you are incapacitated. The last thing your Attorney(s) need is arguing with other people who disagree with your wishes. I’m lucky in that my DB is also next-of-kin and we agree as mum didn’t leave any explicit instructions, trusting me to do what’s best.

More examples of specific situations especially in relation to healthcare decisions would be great thanks all. So not 'it was important that we were able to make decisions' or 'it was awful that we couldn't make decisions' but what the decisions - real or hypothetical could be?

Well, you could look at the medical histories of your parents, grandparents etc to see if there are any conditions that tend to run in the family to give you an idea for specifics, but commonly it’s things like:

If incapacitated, do you want every effort to be made for you to live at home with external support, or would you want to move to specialist facilities? I know someone with Parkinson’s who was very physically incapacitated towards the end of their life, but absolutely clear that he wanted to be at home and he had carers coming in to look after him. However it was very hard on the family because his hospital bed took over the lounge and the whole house and their lives were arranged around him and his illness with no escape or break for them.

if you get some form of dementia, do you want every effort to be made medically right until the end? Or would you want the decision to be made on a case by case basis, depending on whether the likely outcome would restore you to the best that you could be or not. Eg, if you got diagnosed with cancer, would you want palliative care (ie medication for comfort and pain only) if you had already lost capacity, or would you want surgery/chemo? My mums GP gave the hypothetical example of her falling and breaking her hip - while medically she might survive the operation, she would not remember and/or understand why she was in pain, be able to cooperate with her physio exercises, the anaesthetic may cause delirium or a worsening of the dementia etc and so she would in all probability remain bed bound anyway, which would be the same outcome as not operating.

Yes. If one of you is hospitalised and unconscious etc you will need it to deal with finances.

Also, 'Next of Kin' - so often mentioned on Mumsnet - has no legal meaning at all. It's Power of Attorney (registered) or (legally-speaking) nothing.

https://www.howellslegal.co.uk/news/next-of-kin-what-are-my-rights/

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/104016

incidentally I've been on mumsnet for over 14 years and this is my first AIBU always been terrified of starting a thread here 😂 but thanks you've all been very patient with me although I'm still worrying about dh locking me up in an asylum for being a pita if I sign

Yes, you need them (both kinds - there's one for legal / financial affairs and one for health). They have to be signed while you have full capacity - no getting it after someone has started to develop dementia or similar. Also bear in mind that there are lots of other ways for a person to lose physical / mental capacity, sometimes suddenly. You nominate three people, so spouse first and then the other two. I know someone who's been incapacitated by a stroke (very sudden, he was very fit) and his wife just can't get anything sorted out. Do it ASAP.

Things like if someone needs care (and no capacity to make their own decisions), what sort of care are they going to have and how is it going to be paid for? Residential care, or in their home? If it's a home, which one? Suppose the person has dementia and money in the bank which could be used for care but no capacity to handle their own finances. The spouse, with POA, can access the money and arrange the care. If a house was jointly owned, the spouse could make the decision to downsize and free up some money for care, and the same sort of thing with any other joint assets.

Can you not get it if dementia is already present? I'm now thinking of an elderly family member with very fragile mental health whose mum did have dementia. I am next of kin and I always assumed I'd sort out power of attorney at some stage if I needed to- it's not a parent and it seems very insensitive to ask about this at this stage especially as I'm a beneficiary of their will. I would worry they would think I'm trying to get my hands on the money early.

Excuse me for a long post.

Just to be clear, nobody can force a doctor to act to provide any medical treatment that they don't think is beneficial. So if the doctor doesn't think a treatment is of benefit, they won't give it. This is how, for example, DNACPR decisions are made - resuscitation is a medical treatment and it's up to a doctor whether they think, if your heart stopped, trying to restart it would a) work at all and b) would result in anything other than an utterly shit quality of life. Hence your dh rocking up to a mental health hospital and saying 'here's my wife, she's got those funny hormone changes going haha, lock her up for me chaps' isn't going to happen. Apart from anything else, it takes stratospheric levels of illness to be admitted to a mental health unit in the UK, and tbh you can see why, as they are profoundly untherapeutic places, it's just that sometimes the alternative is even worse. (A sore point for me as my late dh was assessed as low risk and admission refused, 3 hours before he took his own life). It's also possible that you're mixing up American law with UK law - in general, AFAIK, US family members have more of a legal role in treatment decisions than UK ones.

What everyone has the right to do is REFUSE treatment options. And that can really matter.

It's important to understand as well that an attorney should make decisions in YOUR best interests - not theirs. So, for example, you are 89 and have dementia but you still enjoy life and unlike most people on these boards (unlike me) you have always said you want to keep going as long as possible. You get an infection, as people with dementia do, your GP goes to see you at home and sees that you arent very alert, you're not really swallowing so oral antibiotics are going to be a struggle, discusses hospital admission or urgent community response for IV antibiotics with your dh. Now, if it were me, I want no truck with anything to prolong my life once my mental capacity is shot for any big decisions, and I expect my dp to refuse IV antibiotics in any setting and for my GP to work on a purely palliative basis. But maybe you feel differently and your DP knows this. So he says yes to the IV, you have a few days of them, and you pull round for another few years, though you aren't as mobile as you were before the infection.

My Advanced Directive is on my GP notes. It's based on my son's age, and on the purpose of treatment. Nothing to prolong my life in any way, once he is a certain age (and I've lost capacity). I don't mind for example a feeding tube if that's the only way to get painkillers into me (eg I'm so dehydrated that my veins have collapsed). They can do what they need, provided the aim is palliative. I also specifically ask for a review by a palliative consultant, but I'm aware I can't demand that and expect to get it.

Ask yourself; if you don't trust your dh, why do you trust a sequence of ever-changing health professionals who've never met you MORE? Some will be great, some average, some not so great. The point is that you will not be able to decide. It really does happen, however difficult it is to conceive of it, that you can't make choices or communicate them.

You can always include others as a balance. But don't create a 'balance' by adding an attorney who hates your dh. Someone to support him, maybe.

About someone appointing attorneys if dementia is present- it can happen. It's not the diagnosis, it's the mental capacity for the decision. Someone needs to be able to understand, weigh up and communicate their decision, in this case to give power of attorney to someone else.

Best argument in favour is this: By the time you need it, it's no longer possible to get one because you lack the capacity to consent. And it can take months to issue the POA depending on their backlog. In which case you'll get stuck in the hell that is the Court of Protection (or whatever it's called these days). Remember it's a two way street - you may be the one having to deal with your husband at a difficult time when he loses capacity. I found a POA to be great for fending off the more predatory tendencies of social workers and others whose job it is to get involved.

I'm wondering if you a appoint someone while you are fairly young, then decide you wouldn't want them to do it anymore, how hard is it to terminate?
My husband and I haven't got round to it yet but one thing that's putting me off is that everyone I know who has done it has a second adult. I would have my husband but would want someone to support him. My brother although lovely isn't suitable and my parents are would probably find it stressful as they are getting older. My kids are still, well, kids. And although I have friends, none of them are so close I'd expect them to deal with this. If I added my mum as well (she gets on well with my husband) could I take her off when she's a bit older?

Please do get it. An example we very commonly have on our ward is someone has a traumatic brain injury/ stroke/ dementia whatever which would mean they cannot possibly manage at home but they have no capacity/ insight so won’t/ can’t consent to moving to residential care. If power of attorney is not in place the family have to apply for guardianship. This costs thousands of pounds and takes around a year where we are.
It does not come into play until you no longer have capacity but must be made while you still do have it.

No, you can't, you have to have it beforehand. (As someone pointed out further up thread, "next of kin" isn't a legal category and means nothing). This is how people get in a hell of a mess when things go wrong - not wanting to have the difficult conversations. Bite the bullet. Frame it as wanting to make sure that you'll be able to help them if there's a problem. You name three people on a POA anyway so it won't be just you - talk to them about who else they want.

POA doesn't allow you to help yourself to someone else's money while they're alive - you can decide how it's spent but it has to be for their benefit, like on care. Maybe consider making an appointment with a solicitor who could explain all this to your relative.

I definitely would. I’m a nurse and people assume NOK get a say but not always. If you don’t have capacity and decisions need to be made, it’s usually a best interests decision but in my experience the medical team make decisions first, it’s only if that’s disagreed with really that I’ve seen it go to best interests.

What doctors deem as a decision, might not necessarily be what you want but as previous posters have said, it only comes into play if you lose capacity. It might also be worth you looking into advanced directives if there’s things you know you don’t want, where your oh might change their mind about for you

I work with the elderly and dementia and unfortunately a lot of people never get round to it and then when they really need POA, they’re no longer deemed to have capacity after sudden onset of new confusion, dementia etc and then it’s too late so in fact falls to medical decisions by the medical teams caring for them

Further to earlier answer, POA isn't something that you can "sort out" unilaterally - it's your relative who has to start the process. They instruct the solicitor, who will then send the papers to you (and the other two people) to say you agree.

It is a lot more difficult, financially and emotionally as if a person loses capacity you have to apply to court for what is called deputyship rather than poa which is more straight forward whilst someone has capacity (I am however aware in my job role that people don’t always find the poa forms straight forward)

We did them and registered them immediately. I do not have the words to tell you what a godsend it was when my poor late DH acquired a neurodegenerative disease and I found myself having some difficult decisions to make that he could not participate in. I would strongly advise that you do this.

Every so often, usually because of a thread like this one, I have yet another look at the paperwork. DH and I are in our 70s so we really need to get on with this.

I have to admit that I've not given it much thought lately, mostly because all our bank accounts are joint, so if either of us were to become incapacitated then the other could still access those. But I hadn't thought about other things that posters have mentioned, such as selling our property, or even that all the bills are in DH's name so I could find problems there.

I find the very specific order of signing and witnessing quite complicated, and that puts me off doing anything, especially in terms of who could act as our certificate providers. However, we're seeing our solicitor soon, on another matter, so I could ask if they could sort it out for us.

Thanks for posting, OP. A very timely reminder to not put this off any longer.

Not RTWT.

Actually, I would not get POA. If you lose capacity, the OPG would appoint a deputy. The amount of people I have seen get utterly screwed over friends and family as POA, I would opt for a deputy every time.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether you would prefer the state to make decisions on your behalf if you should lose capacity, or whether you would like a trusted friend or family member to take on that role instead. There is no right or wrong answer, it's a very personal decision.

I have PoA (health/finance) for a couple of relatives. I love them deeply and will always act in accordance with what I believe they would have wanted had they been able to choose for themselves. I plan to get dd set up as my attorney in the near future... just in case.

Yes.

Nobody plans to get hit by the proverbial bus tomorrow, but sadly it sometimes happens.

But it can take a very very long time.

I really need to set up POA for myself but I have no-one to ask to do it. So, I will be left for the state to deal with, and no-one will be able to access my bank, sell my house etc.

I have LPOA for health and welfare but it's my sibling and young aunt not my husband. When my children are old enough I will change it to them. Doesn't have to be your husband.