Do DH and I need power of attorney for each other?

[Midlifecareerchange]

Inspired by the AIBU about the benefits of marriage.

Dh and I have mirror wills. Our solicitor has now suggested power of attorney forms and I'm trying to figure out if there's any downside. It feels really wrong to me to sign anything that would give away my rights and power financially or in the case of healthcare, even if those things are hard to invoke and need to be signed off by medical professionals. I think of all those women who got carted off to asylums in the past when they got a bit grouchy and troublesome. I'm very grouchy at times 😬 DH and I are early 50s. I thought it was something you do in your old age if losing your marbles.

We have some assets in joint accounts and some in separate. We both have logins for both just in case needed. We are married.

YABU: sign the forms
YANBU: don't sign them

and yes I will also clarify the pros and cons with said solicitor when I get a chance.

@Darksideofthemoonshine I can imagine but there are also plenty of families who’ll do the best they can for their loved ones if they lose capacity. I’ll certainly do my best for my Dad. 🤷

As well as some of the healthcare decisions, health and welfare POA will also cover decisions relating to social care. For example, if you had significant care needs and were being discharged from hospital then your POA would be able to decide between care visits at home and a care home (if your care needs are high enough). However if you don't have power of attorney then it would be down to the social worker solely. They won't know that it is more important to you to be in your own environment even though you are at high risk of falling and breaking bones, but your husband would know you much better.
However if you don't trust him to act in your best interests then it is best not to put it in place or to give it to someone else. As you have already said, you cannot think of all possible decisons and your wishes in that situation and so it has to be someone who you feel would act sensibly and in line with your values.
The key thing is that if you want it, then do it early as it cannot be done once someone loses capacity.

Why risk it? Many families also act misguidedly - you only have to look at recent threads on here to see that. People wanting to invest their loved one's money in risky things that they have no right to - not realising the legal ramifications of their role as POA.

Also to another pp - it's not "the state" that steps in. It's a court appointed deputy.

I'm not in the UK, but here a doctor has to sign a form to say the person no longer has capacity to make their own decisions before a personal care and welfare POA can be invoked. Everyone should have one (says she who hasn't organised one herself yet!) and the person who you name should surely know what it is you would want to happen if you weren't able to advocate for yourself. It does have to be done before you lose the capacity to make rational decisions.

It’s not just if you’re old. It’s if one of you gets knocked down by a bus and has brain damage. It can’t be invoked while you have capacity to refuse. Just do it.

I did the government one. Very easy to do. The timescale window from paying online to sending documents back is short so we had to arrange it for when a certain family member was travelling up to sign the forms.

Can you elaborate on the getting screwed over? Are you in the UK? Thanks

@Midlifecareerchange I’m British and know a lot about it due to my career. Screwed over as in “trusted” family and friends spending their family member’s money and doing things like letting other family members live in their house for free while they’re in a care home. Some are total scum bags but there’s a lot of nuance to it, people who are misguided and perhaps don’t understand that they can’t spend as they please no matter how well meaning. One family I know of spent their poor mum’s money (while she was in a care home) on school fees / uni fees for their little darlings and couldn’t understand why they were being taken to court. People think it’s their inheritance / family money and they get greedy.

If you don’t get a POA and then lose capacity, it goes to the court of protection. As someone said “the OPG will appoint a deputy” but that process is painful, expensive and very stressful. They don’t just turn around and say “you’re his wife, you can do it” - you have to apply, fill in lots of forms, every inch of your character and finances are assessed and then it goes to the court for approval, and they may say no and appoint someone else.

POA is putting you in control of who manages decisions about your life whilst you’re still able to choose. As soon as you lose capacity you can no longer apply for a POA - it’s why it’s so important to set it up before you lose capacity.

I work in Banking so have seen many examples over the years of where it has gone right and where it’s gone wrong.

Also PLEASE don’t use each others logins for insurance, banking. Etc - it’s breaching the terms and conditions of your account and if your bank or whoever find out they are perfectly within their rights to close your accounts and exit you as a customer.

We have both kinds of POA with each other. DH also has it with his single brother and MIL. MIL strongly encouraged us to get them, because it was really useful for her when FIL had dementia.

Having volunteered at an advice charity I've seen how people's lives can change really suddenly with accidents, strokes, illness etc.

A few things I've spent my mum's money on with her POA -

• moving her to a nursing home nearer family which is also much nicer
• a table that allows her to actually look at magazines and photos rather than have them out of reach abd invisible to her
• a fancy cup she can drink from independently rather than needing help for every sip

-real orange juice instead of squash

• clothes that fit, she's changed shape several times over 3 years

You wanted specific examples.
When my gran died suddenly we weren't able to cancel any of the utilities or phone line etc because they couldn't speak to her. Lots of ridiculous going round in circles conversations explaining that they couldn't speak to her because she was dead! She had the POA forms and they'd been submitted but the process hadn't had time to be completed as her illness progressed too quickly.
As a carer I had a client whose family lived on literally the opposite side of the country. As a care company we were having to try and get SS to do what they needed to as it was clear to us she was not safe at home. Her dementia was awful for her, she wasn't eating or drinking enough, she went missing, she had delusions that made her terrified in her own home, she either didn't take her meds or overdosed on them on a daily basis. We were given one visit a day, increased to two when we fought for that on her behalf. I would regularly end up going there in my own time between other visits (with permission from the office) because I was so concerned about her. If her family had POA they could have made the decision on care needs and would have had us in for the maximum, they said as much!

If you do not have LPAs in place and need to apply to the court to appoint a deputy, it takes a long time and costs about £10K as a solicitor needs to be involved.

Deputies are supervised. That’s the major point of difference here.

To be fair a POA lapses immediately on death so wouldn't have helped there.

Using someone else’s logins for their bank account is actually fraud, so isnt a long term solution.
You might never need POA, most people dont. But if you haven’t got it when you need it life can become very difficult.
My DM was very capable at 85, her DH, my stepfather, not so much - he had dementia. Neither had POA. DM died very suddenly and unexpectedly whilst my SF was in hospital. I was left to sort everything out and whilst the health side of things wasn’t too difficult (social workers / NHS and care home staff communicated with me very well) the financial side was a nightmare. I eventually got Deputyship (like POA but much harder to get) after a year which enabled me to deal with his finances. As you can imagine they were in a complete mess by this point.
So, my advice is for both of you to do POA for finances and health and welfare - it’s about £80 for each one and can very easily be done online. You really don't need to pay a solicitor. I would recommend having more than 1 deputy - do you have adult children or a trusted relative/friend?

No it doesn’t. I did this via a solicitor in 2023 and in total it was just short of £2k.

Thanks everyone for your comments and especially the personal stories. They have helped me understand the whole thing better and to work out why I had a different feeling about this than I did about making wills. I can face up to the fact I'll die one day but imagining an extended period where I am still alive but lack capacity to make decisions is not something I've given any thought to. Planning for things that are horrible isn't usually on my radar. I guess I'm an optimist.

On to the practicalities: last time I looked at it I thought the certificate provider needed to be a lawyer or GP. Now I've looked again it seems that's one of two options. Do people just choose a trusted friend who is not a beneficiary of the will?

When my gran died suddenly we weren't able to cancel any of the utilities or phone line etc because they couldn't speak to her. Lots of ridiculous going round in circles conversations explaining that they couldn't speak to her because she was dead! She had the POA forms and they'd been submitted but the process hadn't had time to be completed as her illness progressed too quickly

POA and Deputyship ceases upon death. Also, all utility companies and banks have bereavement helplines that, in my experience, deal with things very well. In the example Ive quoted, the deceased hadn’t even complet Ed the POA process so its irrelevant.

We have done ours and also included our DS. I don't want him having any of the worries we had with my in laws when they were elderly. We did this about 5 years ago (we are early 60s now). They are lodged with the solicitor and we can just forget about them until we need them.

My DM did hers about 10 years ago and so pleased she did. She now has what is probably dementia (she refused to have scans to confirm) but I had to register her POA with the bank last year as she gave all her bank details out over the phone to a scammer.

They can be whomever you want - when my MIL applied, she had my DH and his brother. They were both beneficiaries and executors of her will. The two documents - POA and Will - are not linked.

Yes, do it now. My mil didn’t do it as she always said there’s plenty of time and she’d “know” when the time was right. But then dementia set in and events overtook her - we knew she needed to get it in place as we could see the deterioration, but she couldn’t as she thought she was fine even though we had to help her with everything - she couldn’t remember we had to help her! We ended up having to go to court of protection for a court order as she ended up incapable of understanding what the poa application was about and couldn’t get anyone to sign that she understood what she was signing.

IIRC my mum's boyfriend was her certificate provider. Much easier than getting her GP to do it. They mustn't be an employee and have to have known them for two years or more. The will isn't an issue, though he wasn't in her will either.

It’s not just the initial application, there are ongoing annual fees unlike a poa.

Re costs: You can DIY online, you can pay a solicitor (££) or there are services who will fill it all in (£) and then the person, attorneys, and witness need to sign it.
It costs £82 each to register them with the office of the public guardian.