To feel so fed up that the only way to get a good education seems to be privately?

[Greensha]

I’m uk based. I live in a reasonably nice area but the schools are rubbish. We’ve looked further afield and they’re all pretty similar. I don’t know if my expectations are off but the classes are huge, like 30 kids in one room (I thought 25 was the max!). The buildings scruffy. One had a lovely lunch room and nice outside space but the rest of the school was falling down. There’s absolutely no way we can afford private and the one local to us is worlds apart to these state schools. I am trying to remind myself that a lot of that is superficial, the teaching is the same in both sectors as the teachers are the same and I know my dc will leave school with a proper and ‘real’ understanding of life. I can’t help but feel my kids are at a disadvantage overall though and it upsets me. Why should some kids get small classes, loads of sport opportunities and nice clean and tidy environments when others don’t. Doesn’t seem right or fair.

In terms of teachers, my kids in state school have been taught both by teachers who subsequently moved to a local private school or moved from a private school. Paying for private can give you smaller classes, potentially better facilities, but is no guarantee of results.

I agree with the vast majority of what you say @RhaenysRocks but private schools are anything but charitable - it was a bizarre archaic anomaly that had to go.

you are so right on science - and I’m sure the same can be said for many subjects. I see kids with such skill and talent, but that talent is not brought out by the national curriculum.

I agree on parenting too. All sorts of reasons why parenting is so difficult and isolated these days. But it’s not fair to just abandon the kids whose parenting/circumstances aren’t able to produce kids who can slot into school life quite easily - again, even the most selfish should see that the benefit to the rest of the class would be reason enough on its own.

I think it depends on the schools and your child.

I was state educated, have a 1st from uni, a lovely group of school friends who I'm still in touch with, have a good career and a good salary. I'm left leaning and really strong believer in state education.

But, my youngest is high flying with ADHD and I can't find a secondary school round here which can meet his needs and is suitable for both children. So, somewhat reluctantly, we're going private.

Sorry, haven't rtft and am not sure if you're looking at primaries or secondaries. What I've written applies to England only.

There are no restrictions on class sizes after the first two years (R, Y1).

State school classes do tend to be larger than private school ones but all schools will want to fill the rooms they have. The economics of the school sector (any school) are very hard right now. Energy costs and labour costs are sky high.

State schools are often dilapidated unless parents have done extensive fundraising. That was a deliberate govt policy choice when they cancelled Building Schools for the Future in 2010. Now there is a huge backlog maintenance problem.

Private schools are generally very well maintained as prospective parents judge them on that.

Very little difference between teachers in both (I've worked in both). I actually prefer larger classes for A-level (20 ish is my ideal) although marking can be a beast once mocks roll around.

Generally, however, academic standards have improved markedly in the state sector but that's come at a cost of breadth.

It is fair to say that (classical) music, drama, sports, classics, languages are better served in private. You need specialist equipment and teaching to do a lot of that well. Independent schools do share their facilities. But may stop now due to the toxic public discourse following the VAT changes.

But you can pick an area with a good youth music/drama organisation or the type of sport that you want if that's important to you. Still charities doing that stuff well.

@MyPearlCrow vat and charitable status are not related. Schools are not losing their charitable status to pay VAT. By the legal definition of providing a good and not making a profit they are charities. My school does loads with local state schools and provides scholarships and bursaries as far as we can. It's not a wealthy place and operates on v v tight margins. But there are dozens of lengthy threads on that so let's not go there now. The OP was about if it's necessary to go private to get the right education and the simple answer is "sometimes".

The real advantage of private schooling is the availability of such things as music/drama/sport facilities and opportunities; and the ethos of learning as being the norm rather than being uncool.
My now AC went to an assortment if state and private schools according to their needs. They have all done well in their different ways, and they all went to state 6th form.
Buildingd at the private schools were in fact the worst!

" Why should some kids get small classes, loads of sport opportunities and nice clean and tidy environments when others don’t. Doesn’t seem right or fair."

I agree it isn't fair, but remember it's a very small percentage that go to private schools and have these advantages.

I think, like anything in life, you just have to do the best with what you have.

We moved house last year to get into a better school catchment.

I decided to try and fill some of the gaps of things they will miss out on in private school. But I don't really think it can be done.

Ive enrolled them in sports clubs but DP and protecting hours and often can't manage to take them.

They both have piano lessons and I bought a piano for at home. But life is so hectic that they never get the time to practice and DP and I aren't musical so can't help them.

We pay a fortune to stay in the nice area in good school catchment. Mortgage is huge and the house is small. Whereas other people in the area bought years ago and have very small mortgages and much more disposable income. Some of them work part time in their 40s and have very relaxed lifestyles.

Some local kids are at private schools. But the others are at the local state school but benefiting from the wealthy, educated, part-time parents with good jobs.

I guess that is who we are trying to to emulate. But it is very hard.

You just need to do the best you can.

I had a great education - local primary school, comprehensive secondary school then travelled a bit further afield to a good local 6th form college. Went on to get a first class degree. Studied abroad. Have travelled interesting places, played an instrument. Am now in a job I like. My sibling has a similar story. I don't see what private school would have added to my life.

Schools are now are very different to when we went to school

Just on the music front @devongirl12, you'd be better to encourage them to sing or learn a band or orchestra instrument. Then they'd have access to expert coaching and could do concerts and tours etc. Piano's no good for that.

I got a terrific classical music education in the state sector in Kent in the 80s. All that's now moved into the charitable sector and the only fully funded opportunities are for the poorest.

Instrument tuition is at least £200 a term.

We paid nothing like that in the 80s.

Im amazed you get any choice! We live in London and applied to the four nearest state schools. All rated 'excellent' by Ofsted. Didn't get in to any of them due to oversubscription. We were offered a school on the other side of the borough which was (I believe the term used then 'adequate', but did not have a good reputation.
Where I live now has two 'good' and one 'excellent' primary within walking distance. Talking to the owner of two kids FOUR DOORS away from one of them and she said they didn't get a place (must have been a lot of sibling applications that year).
You move to where the schools are good and pay the price in property, and still might not get a place!

The actual evidence on class size impact on learning is weak (I refer to the Sutton Trust meta reviews of the research evidence).

If you teach a subject that requires discussion (I do) then a bigger class gives you a wider range of students and opinions. Small classes can be very exposing for students too. Not everyone likes that.

If you've got a good state school near you then it's a no brainer..most people prefer not to have to incur the huge financial commitment of private school for years and once you're in that system it's tricky to get out of. But if the schools in your area are bad then if you can afford it private school can be amazing for a child. It's just relevant circumstances. I've done both.

Class size has a much larger impact on teacher well being though.
I’m currently marking my GCSE English mocks (we do all 4 papers in full). Smaller classes would make a HUGE difference to me. And would make me able to give better more useful feedback. And more attention to each student.
It’s, unsurprisingly, difficult to isolate what has biggest impact, separating out correlation and causation is hard. But smaller, more manageable classes, I strongly suspect, correlates with a more stable work force who are more willing to involve themselves with extra and supra curricular activities.

There is a medium though. My first A Level Lit class had 5. Fortunately all prepared to chat and disagree so just about worked. I would say somewhere between 10-15 is my ideal for A Level. Below that I would like to see a max of 20.

It won’t happen in state for financial reasons.

My DD’s state primary was scruffy but wonderful and she was very happy there. Her original state secondary had much more modern, nicer facilities but she had a horrendous experience and we had to move her. You need to look past the buildings.

I agree re the marking.

The Sutton Trust were (presumably) looking at class size re grade outcomes and not 'pricing in' teacher retention.

Coursework marking was one of the main factors that drove me out of a grammar school job.

6 bits of coursework x 50 ish kids a year. Bleuch. I would never take a job on a coursework subject again!

I can tolerate exam class mocks as my current school actually let us have gained time (translation for non teachers: you work 7 days a week in exam season and then don't have too much to do once the exams are over).

I do wonder how strss levels vary between an English teacher with multiple essays to nark, and a maths teacher who can set the homework on an app, which then marks the homework.

I have to say I find this maths app really quite shocking. I've only recently found out about it. It doesn't seem to involve a teacher at all which is concerning as my youngest is hopeless at maths.

Why choose to live in a place with poor schools? It is something that should be considered pre conception. The schools round here are all good, and I knew this pre having kids. Else we would've moved. All the primary schools here are good, the secondary's very good. Ds2 is still at secondary, his is exceptional, I've been happy with Ds1's and Ds2's education.

Because obviously not everyone can live near to good schools, seems pretty obvious really.

Most schools now use one of the many many maths apps for regular homework setting. They usually have videos etc embedded and the concepts of geometry or algebra are universal so it doesn't much matter that it's not their own personal teacher. It allows teachers also to see how much time has been spent on it, how often they've accessed the app for revision etc. I have no issues with these "shortcuts" being used when it's appropriate and useful. I teach a humanities subject so doesn't really work for me but I don't begrudge colleagues using them. I teach the same lesson to the whole year group so I have far less planning than a maths teacher who sees one group most days.

Those schools may not be good in ten years time. Leadership changes can cause schools to plummet quickly. And yes, as a pp said, assuming everyone has the choice and freedom to move into good catchments is pretty naive.

You don’t control your feelings. And they are not the business of anybody else to police either.

Your actions are what may or may not be ethically defensible. Personally I think it’s ethically indefensible to prioritise a single group at school but schools always have. They change the group every few years to keep it fresh.