To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

This is a major issue. Misinterpretation. Or just plain ignorance. I'm sorry but a bully will always go back to it when there are no consequences.

I know, my heart breaks for one of my own children who has anxiety which I think is caused by what a stressful environment school is for him. He just wants to go to school and learn but instead has to put up with the disruptive behaviour in his class, the constant shouting out etc. He is very empathetic so feels sorry for the teacher when they are being abused in class. In a way I think 'inclusion' is partly causing 'exclusion' for kids like him who often become school refusers.

Plato was complaining about young people and their attitudes over 2000 years ago. It never changes!

Haven't we always said this about the younger generation?

I have worked in both early years and primary school and don't see the types of behaviour mentioned.

And as "woke" as some of you find it behaviour IS communication, that's for everyone not just kids.

Boundaries are important no one is saying have none!

These threads are getting tiresome banging on about how shit current parents are and how horrible kids are. 🙄

There will always be not so great parents and not so pleasant kids. It's life.

What! For goodness sake!

All behaviour has meaning in context AND unacceptable behaviour needs addressing.

I think the baby has been thrown out with bath water.

It’s two hands needed.

On the one hand it’s important to not label children as bad (they start to live up to it) and understand their behaviour in terms of their developmental stage and what led to it.

AND

On the other hand they need guiding to learn what’s appropriate. This doesn’t have to be in the form of punishment. It can be logical consequences to put it right, meet the learning need or atone.

All of this can be done consistently and without the need for causing fear or shame.

If there is an immediate need for intervention around physical aggression then a 60 second strong scold works well. It can be very clear that it’s the behaviour and not the child that’s unacceptable.

It’s not and either/or. It’s a both/and.

Too many parents abdicate responsibility and expect the school to produce a happy well, adjusted and educated child.

A teacher cannot parent only teach.

If there aren't consequences for breaching a boundary, what's the incentive not to ignore that boundary? I work with kids aged 2-6. Some of the children's behaviour is extremely challenging. Mainly we are able to contain it through having a good relationship with them and directing their energy into something more positive, but sometimes consequences are needed. It's like real life - fuck up a little and people will be forgiving, fuck up a lot and there are going to be consequences. And our job, as caregivers and parents, is to prepare kids for real life. Nobody is going to put up with your bullshit when you're an adult, so you'd better learn to reel it in as a child. We do not help kids by giving them the false impression that the world is going to accommodate them no matter how badly they behave.

Couldn't agree more with all of this, and had a very similar experience of school. Too many people trying to be "mates" with their children instead of parents.

Extra work is a terrible punishment. It reinforces the idea that work is boring and not something anyone enjoys.

Of course there are consequences for breaching a boundary, many of them are natural. I don’t think that children are incentivised through punishment - rather that the previously discussed nurturing relationships and safe environments help to form intrinsic motivation to make the right choices.

Absolutely.

my dc are mostly great (but human and have moods and opinions). Most of their friends are the same. I’ve worked with abused dc before and honestly, shouting and punishing them made them go into themselves and put up a wall. Totally pointless and just fed the teacher’s ego. Different kids and different circumstances need different approaches.

That said, passive parenting makes my eyes roll. Interestingly I’ve seen quite a few dc who’ve been raised by passive parents join the armed forces. It’s like they are desperate to have boundaries and rules.

This. I’m the anomaly in our area at soft play etc as I actively make sure my child is aware of his behaviour, and he’s got extra needs and non verbal but I STILL make sure to reinforce this even if he probably doesn’t fully understand me. It’s so important that children take accountability for their behaviour and that the parents are in control, not the child.
I see a lot of the children controlling the parents, this is wrong, the ‘real world’ will be a big shock. I already see it with the entitlement of teenagers on buses etc, they’ve been told since being tiny that they are the most important thing and that all their feelings are 100% valid, this cannot be good.

France?

Totally. You see it on here day in day out, people drinking with their 13,14 year olds or supplying it to them. Anyone with opposing views being called boring.
I’m not here to be my child’s mate, I’m here to be his parent and he may not always like me but I hope that he knows my job is to guide and protect him. I don’t care if he ‘likes’ me or if I’m ‘cool’ one bit.

There does need to be consequences for bad behaviour

What these are is debatable - but they will be unpleasant and children need to be able to handle unpleasant things happening without it ruining their mental health for life. Resilience.

There also needs to be support for childen with failing families. And that costs.

but those childen still need to know what is right and wrong even if they have a failing family around them. Something bad happening to you shouldn't be a reason to be bad elsewhere. These childen often are not communicating unhappiness , they are often just communicating "this is how i think things should be" . And often children find softer approaches just funny and a quick way to lose respect for the teacher ( speaking from memory). Which teachers can you wrap around your finger ?

And if it is unhappiness- then they need to still know that being bad is wrong.

Never saying no seems totally stupid - no is a key consent word.

Hilarious posters talking about respect and discipline... Sometimes this forum lacks neither...
Pot and kettle folks-pot and kettle.
I admit to being gentle, however, the children have responsibilities and in the main they do them. In their own time. We do not simply operate a prison camp. Some of this is the backlash from the older generations' corporal era.
I think some have strange ideas of what discipline is!
Let's be honest some of what is taught in schools is boring and complete twaddle.😂

Huh ? 🤔

All behaviour IS communication

It's communicating when a kid is a TWAT for example

But if you truly think that it’s boring and twaddle, why would you send them? For free childcare? I genuinely don’t understand why parents fight schools if they don’t like them, don’t use them?
it’s a choice, surely. I’m not using school as my son has complex needs but I definitely wouldn’t send him if I thought it was ‘twaddle’.

Believing your child can do no wrong and not being prepared to say no and mean it seem to me to be the two things at the root of almost all examples of poor behaviour in children and young people. I had my only child at 42 so had plenty of time to observe friends and think about how I wanted to parent. Clarity, being calm, and consistency were where I ended up. Repeating the same thing, over and over, in the same tone of voice, is wearing but it reaps reward over time. Explaining how your child's poor behaviour impacts on other people is wearing as well, but it's how children are socialised.

Too often (not here) discussions about parenting assume a bi-polar approach - you are a parent who is strict (punishment, shouting) or a parent who is gentle (coaxing, never saying no). I think both are wrong. Every parent can draw on their own experience, think about what their child needs and establish their own parenting style. It's quite worrying that some parents embrace the advice of experts rather than trying to work things out for their own family's unique circumstances.

it's not gentle vs prison camp

It's gentle and prison camp vs a narrow line / balancing act of boundaries, consequences and love

Gentle might be working well in sone families , but it doesn't work well on average

@NattyHazelFinch that poster you quoted said SOME not all.

Please, someone put Katharine Birbalsingh in charge of education in this country. She clearly knows what she's doing and has amazing results, including in behaviour. Her blueprint needs to be rolled out nationwide.

Im quite a laid back parent but I absolutely can't get my head around some of the toilet training threads on here. I read about 3.5 year olds ( no SEN) who think it's funny to play with poo and not poo in the toilet. Mothers at their wits' end.
I'm chilled about untidiness etc but I wouldn't be able to stop myself shouting that this behaviour was disgusting and to stop it immediately.
The mother in question had to remove herself from the situation so as not to show anger.
Really!!??

Let’s not. She’s vile. And while I like some of her policies, most are unpleasant.