To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

Teachers are not being listened to. They go to their HT and voice their concerns and are told that there's nothing they can do. The education department don't want to hear it. They've already given more money to teachers so that should be enough apparently.

In my opinion it’s the parents job to PARENT and set the foundations at home. All of our core values start with what we experience a home. Schools and community then add onto that, but parents must also work WITH these external “partners”.

I personally do not take bad behaviour from my daughter. She is in her teens and well behaved (stroppy every now and then - but it’s my job to call out her bad behaviour and to acknowledge good behaviour). Throughout her time in primary I always worked with the school - I never dismiss what a teacher says, but I will ask for my daughters take on a story and judge accordingly.

Being a parent is like being a therapist, a manager and a leader all at once. If any of those 3 people let you go down a downwards spiral, you’d be questioning why. As a parent I see it as my job to make sure my child can become an independent person in the future.

Not to say that it is easy - but we have to hold our children accountable for their actions - if you don’t as a parent someone else will.

One of my DDs friend has a mum who believes she can do no wrong! Everytime she does something pretty concerning her mum defends her and blames everyone else. The girl is in year 8 and has had the police involved with bad behaviour 3 times - on one occasion she lied to the police and told them someone else was responsible (this girl wasn’t even with her!). As I said - if you can’t correct behaviour - someone else will and I’m hoping the girl doesn’t get into serious trouble one day.

It’s also not about parenting alone, we are so defensive these days. My family chip in, my friends might say something - without stepping on my toes - and I’m grateful as my DD needs to learn that other people have different level of tolerance too and there is a code of behaviour that we all, as people follow. We have a close relationship - so she knows some behavioural red flags from other adults too - and I tell her I’d rather she told me things than bottle it up - but she also knows that I will not be happy if she is disrespectful to me and also to others.

This! My DD has done very well in secondary school and she thought she would be selected for an end of year trip that they give to what they call the top “20%”. She didn’t get in and was gutted. She said her friend that has a detention pretty much every week got in, plus said friend is usually absent (her mum who I know takes her out of school for small reasons).

Guess what my DDs friend said to her “ there is no point in being good if you want the perks - you need to be bad”

This just highlights how much schools do not have the resources to focus on the children doing “OK” and how bad behaviour is encouraged unknowingly, this is a secondary school and these kids in particularly are 12and 13!

Hugely in my experience. This is why we have tens of thousands of children in the UK experiencing EBSA. They don’t feel safe.

@ExtraordinaryMachine1

Totally agree with your comments on surestart and inclusion.

I started in early years when we had every child matters and brilliant access to early help and support- universally not just for those children identified as vulnerable. I've watched it all just disappear and the support now is fighting fires not preventative and it's contributing to larger problems in those generation of children.

I also find the attitudes of early years workers has changed. It's always been expected parents would contribute to potty training and behaviour management but when I started kids in childcare full time were usually potty trained by childcare as that where they were most of the time and the parents were more the supportive role. It was framed as working together but that was the reality. Now the attitude is childcare should support the parents who have to actually teach skills like toileting shoes and cutlery. When childcare has to step up and actually teach these things there is often judgements on the parent. Drives me mad. If a parent works full time and I have that child more waking hours than them how is such an attitude acceptable.

Same with SEND kids. There used to be loads of support for childcare for SEN. Really helpful early years teams. Regular free training from the LA. It was rewarding supporting these kids. Now the ratios have changed we have more kids and no outside support so children who have higher needs and take more of our attention are resented and many early years settings just won't take them. I was recently at an LA facilitated meeting where practitioners we're discussing amd planning how we can support vulnerable children. The definition of vulnerable children is board, it covers SEN and poverty, looked after children, children of forces parents. But all the discussion was around poverty and poor parenting! When I raised that that's a narrow definition of vulnerability and we should also discuss SEND everyone in the room just said oh I won't take SEN kids it's so much work. And to my horror the LA facilitator nodded along understandingly. I do take SEND kids because that's my passion and I find it most rewarding but it's true is hard work and as I need to keep ratios lower I get less money. These vulnerable kids are going to enter school with a lot of problems and it's heartbreaking to see the future all children are facing when you see what's happening behind the scenes... I just hope early years in other LAs are not as disgusting as mine

Just want to say thank you to all the hard working teachers out there who have to deal with this. Thank you for not giving up on the kids. And to remind myself that, as a parent, i need to keep the behavioural standards high at home so my DC will be happy, well educated, and succeed in life. Children not only need boundaries, they thrive with them.

I love this. If only all all parents saw things this way.

Now the attitude is childcare should support the parents who have to actually teach skills like toileting shoes and cutlery. When childcare has to step up and actually teach these things there is often judgements on the parent. Drives me mad. If a parent works full time and I have that child more waking hours than them how is such an attitude acceptable

People who work so much that neither parent has time to teach their kids how to tie their shoes, read a book, go to the toilet, or use cutlery, have no business having kids. They should be judged for that. It is not the job of childcare workers to be parents. Support parents, yes, but not replace them.

God you've just thrown me back to school age being told to feel sorry for my bully because they probably have a bad life at home. Um no she was a spoilt brat who got everything she wanted. Meanwhile my best friend who had actually been through some really horrific things was an angel.

Oh and now I've also remembered the old "that boy is being mean to you because he fancies you" chestnut

They have evolved in many schools to the point the aggressor is favoured over the victim(s), the victims being all the children in the school who want to learn, whose opportunities, needs and wishes are forfeit to badly behaved children who cause mayhem and gets lots of attention because of bad home lives etc. I was brought up in damp basement flats and one room family accommodation in multi-occupied houses. I was not the best behaved child but I did not disrupt and I understood that education was my way out of the life my parents had - and they also understood this, and made sure we worked at our education. Having a ropey homelife is not an excuse for bad behaviour. And if the school wants to be a safe place for such children letting them get away with bad behaviour does not provide that safe place; boundaries, routine and consequences (and real rewards) do that.

The bigger picture includes all the other children in a class who are suffering disruption to their education, being bullied etc. by the child who needs telling that if they behave in a certain way then that has instantaneous and unpleasant consequences such as not going on the school trip and all the way to being permanently excluded (I don't care where they are excluded to - it's the other children, the victims, I worry about).

When i was at school you would be immediately excluded for physical violence. At secondary school would give whole class detentions. I am not convinced that it worked. The well behaved kids just stopped behaving in r e. We knew that we would all be punished when a few kids were been disruptive.

This happens with my DC is secondary school sometimes. E.g. They were watching a film related to their topic and some kids started playing up, throwing sweets around the class. The film was stopped and they were told they weren't seeing any more because some kids couldn't behave. My child was very annoyed. However they do have a merit system where they get to go on trips or have fun days if they do well. That is one positive.

I was with a friend recently who does gentle parenting and her 5 year old was being really rude, at one point he was just screaming the word FOOD! really loudly repeatedly at her and she was just saying oh yes I'll see what food I can get you, don't worry darling etc I was with my 3 yr old and was really shocked - there's no way I would accept him talking to me like that - I wouldn't punish him as such but I'd tell him that he's not to speak to anyone like that in a very firm tone and I wouldn't be getting him any food until he could ask politely. We're not doing kids any favours if we are not teaching them basic communication skills and how to interact politely with others. I've seen similar with other parents and think it's definitely a trend but I worry how these children are going to turn out

You only have to look at the skyrocketing children’s mental health conditions to know something is very wrong with how society raises children.

Kindness is imperative, but so is discipline. Parents don’t discipline now out of fear it constitutes abuse. No boundaries, low expectations = poor behaviour, low resilience and high entitlement.

School is only a part of a child's life, homelife is very influential and if the attitudes learned there are poor then schools can do little to overcome it. A parent who teaches their child that they can do what they want in school because the parents have their back whatever is a failure. I recall a conversation between my father and brother in the '60s.
Dad. Why are you late home?
Brother I had detention.
Dad. What did you do to get detention?
Brother. Nowt!
Dad. What should you have been doing?

Seconds that if there was a serious problem he would have looked inhibit but he also didn't tolerate poor behaviour.

It was often those who had a tough life who worked hardest because they wanted to 'better themselves' to use a very old phrase.

Seconds? That said We knew when I typed it!

This proves my point exactly! You found the 'shouty' teacher scary, but even so enjoyed having her teach you. Kids need to be scared to some degree, as this is generally makes them think about their behaviour.

I completely agree - it totally messed up.

I have DS8 (diagnosed ADHD) and DS3.
As part of DS diagnosis path LA put us on mandatory parenting courses. I did these of course, but they were totally useless and completely of the "all behaviour is communication" theme. All pointed at ensuring we constantly validate DS's feelings, avoiding saying negative words like 'No' etc. Absolutely no thought or mention that these children will grow up to live in a world that doesn't revolve around ensuring their every need is met - punishments/consequences will apply when you're an adult whether you have ADHD or not (e.g., fail to perform at work has the consquence of losing your job), breaking the law by speeding will result in fines/points etc. We have firm boundaries with both children and let them know our expectations of their behaviour - I appreciate DS's struggles due to ADHD, but for us its important that he learns (with our help, whilst he's young) what is and is not acceptable, and find ways to feel comfortable within the boundaries of acceptable behaviour because a workplace will not overly bend to his needs.

I agree kids' feelings matter. But we should be teaching them that EVERYONE's feelings matter and life is about balancing your feelings with others' - "yes, you might be sad or angry that I told you not allowed to jump on the sofa like a trampoline, but I am angry that you are jumping on the sofa when you know you shouldn't, and sad that you're treating my things with no respect". That latter part of the conversation isn't happening enough; we seem to be stopping at simply acknowledging their feelings, but not explaining how we feel/victim's of bullying feel.

Yeah. I think that adults don't have the power to show authority anymore so kids don't respect them. For example, when I was younger, any adult giving you a row was terrifying. You stopped what you were doing and apologised. A couple of boys were riding around on their bikes trying to whack kids with metal poles at the park. I told them to stop. They swore at me and laughed. Carried on. I left the park with my DC and suggested the other kids do the same (no parents around other than me). It's terrifying the cheek and threats we get from kids of all ages now because even the police aren't scary to them now. Not that we want them to be afraid of the police but the threat of them getting into trouble means nothing now.

100%.

I work with adolescents facing homeless as we have a crazy number of ND kids being made homeless. It's always the "I did everything I could to make their lives easy" parents calling in as they can't handle their fully grown 16 year old's violence/tantrums when the world is no longer avoiding saying no. We had one parent blame the school for her making her own kid homeless. The school had excluded her kid as she stabbed another kid with a pencil, and now the kid is at home all day, not doing anything, being violent to her siblings and also causing issues with her neighbours due to noise (music, gaming too loud etc) - mum couldn't possibly remove all electronics from her kid to solve the issue, stop her hitting the other kids so instead she wanted her in care. Apparently she tried to sue the school as it was discrimination due to her ASD and ODD which failed.

They are being set up to fail and it's heartbreaking. Saddest thing is these parents usually think they are doing things right, especially if they go in those parenting courses.

Yes, the bigger picture indeed includes the context of all affected. And that’s why I’ve been talking about the difference between consequence and punishment, how those things are applied, and the efficacy of each.

But also I used to say to my dc that scary teachers were often fun teachers too.

Because they knew they could risk letting a class mess about because when they said "stop", silliness stopped and they could get on with the lesson.

The teachers who found classroom management much harder never dared let a class relax because they knew that they might never get back to the lesson.
My dc were sceptical the first time I said that, but after a couple of times agreed that I was right.

That's because the distinction is false most of the time. The only time there is a distinction is on the rare occasions when the consequence occurs naturally (mistreat your toy, it breaks, no toy). In most cases the 'consequence' is something negative imposed on the child by someone else (hit a child at soft play, we go home) That is a punishment. If you issue it as a warning (hit that child again and we will go home) you are using FBC because you are threatening the child with something that will make them sad to moderate behaviour. Most consequences are just punishments with a nicer name, and the fact they've been renamed rather than dispensed with does rather make the case for their necessity, even amongst the gentlest of parents.