To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

Honestly, parenting children to be well behaved, respectful and courteous is a long-winded and relentless endeavour. Sadly I think the reality is that there is a critical mass of parents who just aren't doing this properly.
I think there are lots of reasons for this, but I'm sure one is that families are under increasing pressure to get both parents back at work as quickly as possible and for as long as possible. This means that they just aren't actually spending that much time with their children and getting stuck into the hard graft of patiently helping their children's character development and discipline. It's not a very modern or politically correct perspective but I stand by it and would add that as families are increasingly abandoned by governments and social networks disintegrate this also feeds into the poor mental health of young people. There are so many factors at play, but until we look as a society at how we value the role of families and mothers, it simply isn't going to get better.

This is a very depressing post. Agree with the other teachers on here. So much poor behaviour in the classrooms with no consequences. I feel so so sad about the poor children that want to learn but CAN'T due to at least one kid cartwheeling across the classroom, lobbing stuff around or just making such a racket. It's so wrong that this is happening. No wonder children don't want to go to school.

Need tough discipline but you can’t do that nowadays so this is what happens unfortunately.

@Wisenotboring I disagree. I grew up in a poor area where all mums worked. The decent families (they weren't all), were very strict about manners. Showing your family up by misbehaving was the worst sin possible.

100% ! This country are raising spoilt entitled brats who are growing up not knowing what consequences are, lazy parenting and not enough people saying NO.

My mum has worked in a school for 22 years and she has seen and been in all sorts. This week a boy threw a chair at her because he didn’t want to do his schoolwork and he was taken in the office, offered a cup of tea and asked ‘what’s going on, do you want to talk about it’

and that’s not even the worst of it.

He was back the next day.

also, it’s not being dealt with properly through primary school age, they are just palming it all off, ticking boxes and getting by until they can palm them off into comprehensive school and it’s somebody else’s problem then. Then the whole issue is rooted in who they are and it’s too late to change.

I think parents don't parent.

My grandchildren are all teenagers. They all are respectful. Hardworking. Well behaved. Family orientated.

They were parented. And grandparented.

This. Middle class parents around here much more lax with parenting and discipline. Mainly because they know they’ll get away with it whereby a working class person would be scolded for doing the same.

The reality also, which I think some people have cottoned onto, is that while poor/feral behaviour might be an issue, most children will eventually grow out of it when they get older and conform with social norms if reinforced to them over and over again. Whereas confidence is far harder to instil if you have an unconfident child. So there's no point instilling good behaviour at all costs if it damages your child's confidence.

Of course the downside of this approach is that it externalises various costs of bringing up children - it might benefit your children to be very comfortable taking up space and making noise in public, but everyone round about has to deal with this. And of course some children may struggle successfully to assimilate social norms. But there's a difference between children who know the boundaries but choose sometimes to disregard them (because they're not all that afraid of the consequences), children who know the boundaries and rigidly stick to them for fear of the consequences and children who have no boundaries whatsoever.

I appreciate your perspective and agree that it can be possible and should be! I had similar upbringing myself in terms of expectations. I just see.more and more families under pressure and with the advent of screens as easy babysitters, I think we would be wise to support families well.
I think the point you make about 'decent' families is really interesting. Values have changed and we don't feel as bound by what others think of us as much. It's more.aboit 'my rights' and 'my perogative to choose what I do and when' . This has also had an impact I suspect.

Yeah. That's what has been happening at my DCs school. No consequences at all for the children and the ones who are being hurt just have to deal with it. It's really not fair.

It is a difficult one, because we need leaders of business that are world class to keep the UK on the world map for commerce. Autobiographies and other sources time and again show that many of the best business heads were the best thugs, schemers and bullies during their journeys through education. I say go Darwin, survival of the fittest, drop the punishments altogether.

Unfortunately I think there is something in this. The anxious compliant types (I was one myself) may be a teacher's joy but I'm not sure how well they're set up for success in our society as presently run. And if parents have cottoned onto this, it might explain why they don't prioritise good behaviour over self-worth and confidence. Better an obnoxious child than a shy one. It's rather depressing though.

I really resonate with this. I'm a primary school teacher, thankfully only part time. I actually really love teaching, when the kids are calm and listening.

Unfortunately behaviour is driving me out. I have one pupil who threatened a member of staff with scissors, swore across the classroom regularly and kicked another child in the head.

I had to write a very long and formal email to get this child removed and he was eventually. He had two days suspension, then came back to school on a gradually increasing part time timetable. He's now back full time with a 1:1 TA, medicated for ADHD and is alot calmer.

It has taken up a huge amount of our time writing reports, meetings with parents. The parent insisted that the reason for this behaviour was undiagnosed ADHD and school not picking this up, basically accusing us of causing his behaviour, even though all three of her children are very badly behaved. Not once did she point the finger at herself.
It's the school's fault he behaves this way.

The other children see him leaving the classroom to have 'sensory breaks', colouring in while the others sit and listen, and getting full attention from an adult so they can 'keep a lid on him'.

That's the big issue now. We have to just keep a lid on it. We're not allowed to exclude permanently. Parent would put in a formal complaint if we did anyway, which brings a whole host of paperwork and meetings with it.

Schools really do have their hands tied, and as a result we just pick up the pieces of poor parenting and get moaned at at the same time as if it's all our fault.

Our workload has gone up massively with all this as well. It's a thankless job now.

There’s a clear distinction. A consequence teaches, maintains safety and encourages accountability. Punishment is a fear and shame based form of control.

Hmm. Unfortunately some kids don't really care about being 'taught'. You explain why they shouldn't do something and they often don't understand or care.
That's why we have to use 'punishments', until they're old enough to actually understand, and care about it.

Totally agree, nobody is allowed to discipline kids these days. I am not talking about beating them to a pulp, but a light slap on the bum dosent do any harm. Saying no to a child also does no harm. I was hit on the bum as a child, as was my children. All 3 of my kids, and myself have grown up with no mental health issues as a result, all have either been to uni, or is currently in uni whilst holding down part time jobs. They all have a good network of friends and more importantly have respect for others and have never been in trouble with the police. Kids need to know bounderies. These days kids are running amuck, whilst the parents sit back and do nothing. Kids know they can get away with it.

I haven't read the whole thread but I agree with this. I can't understand people who are so afraid of saying no, afraid that their child ever feel any sort of negative emotion. There seems such infantalising of children on here long into teenage years and adult years. I've read on here parents saying that children nowadays need parenting well into their 20s. How does this do them any favours, when do they become independent adults. I've read all sorts of completely insane threads on here.

Examples being rather than saying a simple "no" to a young toddler, parents going into long winded conversations with children as young as 18 months about feelings and expressing emotions that the child couldn't possibly understand than being bewildered when their child still displays the same negative behaviour.

A parent who complained it took them four hours to get out the house in the morning as her toddler was holding her hostage and was in charge of her and her husband.

A parent being too afraid to book a holiday and not invite her adult children incase it upset them.

I'm not saying bring back the cane, smacking etc but surely there needs to be some middle ground to where we are at now.

As a teacher myself we have to pick our battles. We want to tell a child off but it very much depends on the child. For example, I have a very volatile child who I may let some things slide because I know if I say anything the situation will escalate very quickly to me and other children being punched, my classroom being trashed etc. and there is no SEN involved and they are 6yrs old. I know it's not right or fair but this job is exhausting these days and I'd rather a child go home with a slight sense of injustice than a black eye or bruised arm etc. behaviour is ridiculous and teachers are powerless. We're all fed up

You seem to imagine, however, that behaviour is communication, and it really is not. It's bad behaviour, which impacts everyone around the badly behaved child.

Children need to parented and disciplined, I feel for parents who have children who may need extra support for autism and ADHD etc.
DD was never a problem for us apart from confidence issues. But we must have done something right, she is now 20 and starting her career in the Royal Navy

This 100%, and if you do discipline, their parents either raise their eyebrows and say 'oh dear' as if there's nothing they can do either, or they defend their child because they don't want the battle at home.
I was once called the worst of worst swear words and when told, the parent turned to the child and said 'oh dear, do you need a hug?'

Children with behavioural issues either have undiagnosed sen and/or a troubled home life that you don’t know about. It’s true that behaviour is communication and all punishing them will do is make them feel more unloved.

And people wonder why the prison population is double what it was in the 1970s .....

Hitting children is abuse.

That's why in 30 years time this country will be totally fucked. Loads of brats full of fast food and heads full of too much T.V whose parents can't control and say no to.
Teachers aren't allowed to discipline. The first sign of bad behaviour parents are screaming out for an EHCP. Get back to basics and quick or we're on the road to,destruction.