To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

Kids are now left at nurseries for long days from an early age. That just wasnt a thing 30 years ago. There were playgroups and childminders but there werent masses of babies and toddlers in nursery settings. Other toddlers are not the right people to socialise toddlers. Nursery staff cannot replace the 1 to 1 that young children need to be able to learn emotional regulation. Studies have shown that even when children appear settled in nurseries, their cortisol levels are through the roof. This type of sustained stress at a young age affects brain development. It's little wonder that they go on to be anxious teenagers.

Honestly, education is a mess with regards to behaviour. I had a complaint a few years ago that I was rude to a pupil. After a whole investigation, it turned out I had said "no" when asked if they could do something they weren't allowed to do 🤷🏼‍♀️ That was the whole complaint... I was rude because I said "no." On another occasion, I was harassed by a pupil for months because I covered a lesson and apparently told them off (I honestly don't even remember the interaction happening because it was so minor). The reactions from both parents and pupils is so major to the most minor slights. I don't teach anymore.

Good for the parent of the boy with ADHD!

It sounds like all the time people were saying it was her fault and he was naughty and poorly parented, she was totally right, he did in fact have ADHD (given he is now medicated for it and the medication is working he must now have a diagnosis too).

Three children the same? Probably even more likely to be ADHD then, tbh - given ADHD and autism both run in families.

To have got a diagnosis, navigated exclusion and reintegration (and where was this child whilst suspended and coming in part-time? at home with an adult who therefore couldn't be at work?), secured an EHCP (given that he now has provisions and support), probably whilst dealing with similar issues from him and her other children at home and all whilst being told it is her own fault she must actually have been doing some really stellar parenting recently!

I haven’t offered my opinion on that statement. Maybe you’re imagining things?

Absolutely, a sadly all too common scenario.

Sorry you feel you have to use punishments. That hasn’t been my experience at all, in my personal or professional life.

I've seen kids physically attack and assault another child and instead of telling the child off and letting them know it is not acceptable to behave that way, the parent has hugged them and spoken sweetly to them. I've seen that child smirk and lap up all the attention.

Anyway, the victim was my 1 year old and it took a few days for the bite marks and bruising to disappear. The "teacher" that I was paying £12 a session said "they're too young to understand so there's no point telling them off. You just have to have eyes in the back of your head and catch them before they bite or pull hair".

Erm no. Absolutely not. It actually triggered my PTSD and I was hyper vigilant, terrified of what a 2 year old was going to do next, panicking whenever he came near, so I quit going there.

Who decided it was acceptable to allow this? Today's molly coddled aggressive child will be tomorrow's abuser. I fear for tomorrow's women :(

Please discipline your sons! Yes, daighters, too, but for God's sake, these boys are going to be huge, strong men with no self control or decency.

Everyone needs to understand this. I'll second it.

Toddlers are not the right people to be socialising toddlers!

Children should have an adult caregiver and should be a parent or grandparent, NOT some 19 year old inexperienced, overworked, minimum wage young woman.

We need to change and quick. Our kids are being failed. And I mean at a societal level! No individuals are to blame.

Women unfortunately need to understand that we can either have a career or be mothers, before age 30. We can't do both. It isn't working.

We've lost complete track of what behaviour is due to SEN, lazy parenting or abuse.

As such, we end up with kids who genuinely interventions sitting on a massively long waiting list, their needs not met, whilst those who are just the product of poor parenting are getting wrongly labelled and/or encouraged to continue with their poor behaviour whilst they fail to learn key elements of social skills. It then becomes a vicious circle.

With respect, its not helpful for understanding of the distinction you claim exists to simply state consequences achieve this, while punishment is that. I gave an example where I cannot see the difference. Can you explain to me how being made to leave soft play for hitting another child after a warning, is a consequence but not a punishment? Does the warning not serve to instill some fear of losing the play? Does the loss of the play not punish the child for their actions? Whether or not there is 'shame' would rely heavily on the child's personality. "you hurt the other child" may make them ashamed if they have a more highly developed sense of empathy, but may not otherwise.

Fear of real consequences, backed up by carrying out consequences are appropriate.

Yes it’s true that current research shows that a safe environment/ nurturing relationships are very important. But it’s all about balance and understanding what that really means. A safe environment means consistency, setting clear expectations and boundaries, and teaching kids about the consequences of choosing the wrong decision. I think the problem is that the research is being misused /misunderstood

"Totally agree, nobody is allowed to discipline their wives these days. I am not talking about beating them to a pulp, but a light slap on the bum dosent do any harm"

"Wives need to know bounderies. These days wives are running amuck, whilst the husbands sit back and do nothing. Wives know they can get away with it".

What's the difference between hitting your child to make them behave and hitting your wife to make you behave? What about your boss, should they be allowed to hit you if you make a mistake?

In that case, we also need a universal basic income for mothers and other carers that is set at a reasonable level (not subsistence benefits), because women being entirely financially dependent on men isn't working well in a lot of cases. It puts them and their children at risk of poverty and abuse in too many cases.

This is such bollocks!

Again and again this idealised view of 'what it used to be like'. Many, many wc class kids were effectively brought up by siblings, because both parents had to work. The only difference in my generation is that I was able to choose a profession, rather than work in the local factory like my grandparents.

And yet, apparently, behaviour was better in the days. Probably because kids who didn't want see be there just didn't go (hello uncle Ian) and then worked from 15.

There are so many of us here who have managed to bring well behaved children up, in spite of having them mix with other children in nursery. This is also a massive insult to the, generally women, who work in nurseries or as childminders. I couldn't do it. Give me 30 teenagers over small children, anyway.

👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

This rubbish as always starts in California and slowly makes it's way across the pond. Every child is special BS, for example. Every child is not special obviously as from that every adult would be too and we all know that's not the case. Consultants and advisors have ruined the NHS and now doing the same th schools.

There's a huge range of factors going on.

Fashions in "gentle parenting" that are often permissive in the way they are implemented, with few boundaries, consequences or consideration for the way behaviour affects others. A desire to keep children happy in the here and now but not consider the effect long term.

Changes in schooling; corporate academies, a narrow, dull curriculum, OFSTED fear culture, lack of support/ alternative pathways for those whose needs are not being met in mainstream.

Lack of a "village" be it extended family, friends going into parenting at the same time, accessible community groups, Sure Start. That pushes people to SM for (polarised) advice.

Increasing poverty be it of wealth, housing, nutritious food, safe outdoor spaces, and of aspiration.
We now have inter-generational cycles of post-de-industrialisation communities that have struggled to adapt to the increased role of education and changed employment landscape. Employment opportunities are often less accessible than a couple of generations ago with public transport decline or investment needed such as learning to drive and running a car. That leaves a lot of neighbourhoods feeling very disconnected from wider society.
Parents with poor academic skills and negative experience of their own school life often struggle to engage positively with their children's schools. Undiagnosed SENs are often a factor.

Consumer culture; parents quick to complain or offer feedback. Ironically those quickest to offer "advice" at youth groups tend to be those with the most unruly offspring, and their "advice" is either the fucking obvious or totally unscalable for 25 children! A number of parents have abruptly withdrawn children over the years after minor disappointments or behaviour being challenged.

I'm glad I went into parenting with experience of professional and voluntary work with children. I'm no perfect parent, but I've recognised my DCs' needs and addressed those. There were definitely errors especially before the extent of DS's autistic traits were clear (I did twig after a few goes that removing from soft play for violence was a reward, and a better consequence was to sit with me for 5 minutes before we would go- I didn't realise he was suddenly flipping into overwhelm mode then realised a bite could initiate swift exit- at least he wasn't left to run amok).
They need firm boundaries and consequences worth the inconvenience of complying. Sometimes natural consequences are appropriate if they only affect the child (you leave the house without a coat = you get wet) but not if the negative effect falls on someone else (e.g. making your sibling late for school). Last night DS was warned with tech bans if he didn't go to his sport- his outdoor ones are cancelled for weather, he was let off one mid-week for back to school tiredness, so in the big picture it was worth making him vent some physicsl energy. We finished off the night snuggling on the sofa watching TV together. Long term that's a better outcome than letting him bail off as and when he feels like it for immediate pleasure.

On the couple of occasions we've had an issue with school/ youth groups (normally organisation/ attention, never malicious) the teacher/ leaders have been suprised that I've backed them up. Generally the feedback is reinforcing the values/ skills I'm trying to develop anyway!
In a few years when they're grown up, I want them to have the skills they need to flourish as adults.

It's a lot more complex than that and a mix of various things.

Shit governments that have cut all support services and funding to the bone and inclusion policies badly implemented .

Shitty parenting at both ends of the spectrum. Either abusive/neglectful/toxic /chaotic or too permissive.

Shit schools or SLT with a poor understanding of what most of these things mean or how they should work .

When you get a mix of all 3, chaos reigns.

@BestZebbie this is why the relationships are quite strained between parents and schools at the moment, because of the differences of opinion shown in this thread.

I will pick up on your point about what he was doing at home. He was at home because we needed to safeguard the other children. I'm sorry, but his mum unable to work is not our concern. He needed to be kept away from them until we put together a plan. This takes time and consultation with senior staff.

I'm interested to know what your recommendation would have been? Locked in a room with an adult supervising (which we didn't have)? We tried that, and he forced his way out, ran off, found a bat and threw it at a child's head.

It's irrelevant what the SEN was, safeguarding had to come first. We had a fair number of parents complain about this child's behaviour. We couldn't just ignore that either.

ADHD is definitely an issue of course, but what you don't realise is that schools really don't have the support or finances to properly support these children immediately, without months and months of compiling evidence, forms, EHCP wait times. What do you expect schools to do in the meantime? Allow children to continue to get hurt?

Many schools are consistent and do have sanctions. The problem is that this works with kids whose parents also operate this way and where it is an occasional poor choice. Kid makes a mistake, is sanctioned, parent supports sanction, kid does sanction and everyone moves on. The problem comes when kid is not disciplined in a fair and consistent way at home. Parents don't support the school and don't put in boundaries . If your kid speaks to you rudely and doesn't follow your instructions why on earth should he follow the school rules. If your response to trouble at school is that it doesn't matter or that it isn't fair then your child will catch on quickly.

I have been shocked by the way some children speak to their parents and the parent says absolutely nothing. I have sat in meetings where the child spends their whole time on their phone and the parent says nothing. Look at all the posts on here complaining about schools. Many parents don't respect schools.

I was not suggesting that a part-time timetable wasn't appropriate - in fact, from your description the child seemed to have been struggling so much that I might have looked into some kind of flexi arrangement with AP for a few days a week, or even EOTAS, if the mainstream-based provision through EHCP didn't then sort it out (as it seems to be doing, from your description). I was taking issue with your statement that this confirmed ADHD child was not quiet and compliant in school due to poor parenting, when in fact, parenting in that situation and fighting for the adaptations you describe requires much more engaged and active parenting than the average, and a huge commitment to putting the needs (not whims) of the child first.

You wrote "The parent insisted that the reason for this behaviour was undiagnosed ADHD and school not picking this up, basically accusing us of causing his behaviour" but she was actually correct, wasn't she? Because once diagnosed, medicated then and actually supported properly at school "He's now back full time with a 1:1 TA, medicated for ADHD" he "is alot calmer."

Yet despite that evidence you clearly still don't actually believe that accommodation is anything but pandering, given your use of inverted commas in "The other children see him leaving the classroom to have 'sensory breaks'" and resentment that he is now "getting full attention from an adult".

I strongly suggest you read "We Are Not Seeing It: How and Why Mainstream Schools Break SEND Kids" by Luisa Gray, which very clearly explains how attitudes such as this in schools are a primary cause of the overwhelm issues that lead to the behaviour you are seeing and the huge repercussions that continually unmet need, gaslighting and parent-blaming can have for the SEND children and their families.

@cansu , indeed, and so many parents do not appreciate the red tape involved when dealing with poor behaviour.
We get it from both sides. Parents demanding we are harder on those that hurt/upset their child, and parents who are very upset at how harsh we've been on their child hurting others.
SEN issues complicate this further, as parents insist it is due to the SEN yet struggle to understand the insane amount of paperwork, time and money needed to get diagnosis/support in place. We can't just click our fingers and it magically appears. What do they expect us to do in the meantime?

We can't win, so we end up with lots of parents upset with us.

We are between a rock and a hard place. The respect breaks down between us and the parents, and the situation gets even worse. I think this has been gradually happening over the last few years.

@BestZebbie you do make valid points. I don't think I made this clear, but there isn't an EHCP in place yet. His 1:1 TA is not funded, so the class now do not have a GTA as they are now used for this. I don't believe available money for alternative provision.

Forgive me for my attitude around this, but we've had to deal with extremely vicious complaints from parents over the last few months about this child's behaviour and why he hasn't been excluded permanently. Even if you're right, there is absolutely no way we'll ever get other parents to understand this.

To be honest I would struggle if my own child was being beaten to a pulp. I can't really blame parents for being upset that all our time and resources is going on children who simply aren't in the right setting. It's not the child's fault, but unfortunately even if it wasn't his parent's fault either, where is the finger pointed. Always to us, and it's very unfair. Forgive us for feeling a bit bitter about that, when we work so incredibly hard.

@Twirlywurly2 may I gently suggest that you work a bit harder not to confuse or conflate a child choosing to behave badly with the symptoms of a chronic neuropsychiatric condition? It’s quite astonishing that a teacher apparently struggles with this distinction.

DS is an extreme case with autism and a host of other ND diagnoses. While DS was in mainstream primary, I made every effort to retain good relationships with his teachers and other parents. However, I was always very clear that DS would not be put on a reduced timetable and that the law required reasonable adjustments to be made by the school. I also tried to educate the parents about DS’ disabilities, whilst not minimizing their concerns about the impact on their children. We were all doing our best. A child with a broken leg would not be expected to take part in a PE class, but that’s what we expect children with neurodevelopmental disabilities to do, every day, for 6 hours. The fault is - almost invariably - with the LA. Not the child’s parents, not the other class parents, not the teachers.

DS is now happily thriving at a specialist non-maintained school for autistic children. I had to fight the LA tooth and nail for years for this. Great for DS, but not so great for council tax payers - a place costs about £90k per year. Plainly this cannot be a solution for every SEN child, given the spiraling numbers. Like it or not, SEN provision in mainstream schools is going to have to improve and that means making existing schools work for all pupils.