To think asking permission to take off a blazer is utterly ridiculous?

[ShowJumpSally]

My child's school has just moved into a new trust. Clearly it's one of those trusts as the latest email announces how children will be placed in internal exclusion or be suspended if they dare to wear a coat in the building or take their blazer off without asking permission.

Schools consistently moan about funding, there's a teaching retention crisis, teachers are overworked and leaving in their hoards, TAs are underpaid and in short supply, children's mental health is worse than ever, but somehow there's time and money to dish out internal exclusions if child gets hot and dares takes their blazer off without asking?

Aibu to say schools should try focussing their time, attention and money on the real issues instead of nonsense made up ones?
^

Nah I 've grew up near the border and have consistently been part in exchanges.
None of the schools had uniform, but there were some dress codes. None of that stupid blazer stuff so.
Britain and Ireland are the only countries in Europe who have uniforms as fa as I know.
I'm not generally against uniforms even though I come from a country where the don't have any and we muddle along fine.
I think some dress codes like standard polo shirt and trouser colors are fine and are not that expensive.
I think the insistence on disciplining every minor infraction puts way more stress on the teachers and does foster a divide among pupils and teachers when they should actually work together to foster a positive learning environment.

We got an email from my sons academy in the summer during the short period of hot weather we had. It said pupils are permitted to remove their blazers in this hot weather but must ensure they carry them over their arm and are visible while moving around the school. Right

So what's the point in even having the rule if teachers aren't enforcing it by making the children ask anyway?

If teachers do a blanket 'you don't need to ask just take it off if you want too' they're basically acknowledging it is in fact a pretty pointless rule. It also means teachers are undermine the school rule because they aren't enforcing the whole having to ask permission.

Surely it's more damaging to have a rule that teachers aren't implementing, or having some teachers implement it but not others, than it is to just ditch the whole having to ask permission thing altogether.

Yet again, how is it helping you in any way to have to remember to give pupils permission to take blazers off?

Yes, definitely a minimal risk! But a possible one. It's happened at the school I work in (twice that I know of), and our site is built in a way that makes security much easier.

The blazer works the same as a clearly displayed lanyard worn by staff. It makes identification of our school community much easier. (Ties are easier to get your hands on than blazers, and some schools have all kinds of different ties for year groups / houses / prefects...)

I've trained in schools built across roads / backing onto a woodland, where security of who is entering/ exiting is much harder to enforce.

I imagine at "rough" schools with more gang issues etc, this is even more important.

But you don't have to spend 5 years in secondary school asking for permission to take a blazer off to be able to cope with work rules. All that anyone is asking for is that schools get rid of silly rules, no-one has a problem with them enforcing sensible ones.

Wearing it in general, I suppose asking to take it off is a respect thing. Not my cup of tea but it’s an easy blanket to throw.

ref your comment on what impresses inspectors, unfortunately you’re not correct. There are many reasons teachers hate ofsted, and it’s not about being measured personally. Parents are fixated on ‘outstanding’ schools which for ofsted often comes down to what the inspectors class as on-show discipline, and the SLT’s paperwork.

You’ve contradicted yourself there so if you don’t wear the school uniform you couldn’t be excluded for it. Doesn’t matter if it’s on the website it can’t be enforced.

my brothers kids went to a few Scottish schools and they didn’t conform to the uniform only encouraged to do so.
@WhereTheFuckIsMyFuckingCoat

Post Dunblane, security of school buildings is pretty hot. People may get into the grounds, but in a well-run school it should be easy enough to keep them out of the building without insisting on every visitor wearing the school uniform - which obviously doesn't happen anyway, so it's no protection.

Uniform crackdowns are the desperate attempts of mediocre heads to make it look like they are running a tight ship.

Trust me we’ve tried everything and that rule is sent home multiple times a year and referred to in every conversation. I don’t know why labelling property is so hard for the families in my school but I’ve been there 12 years, through several hundred sets of parents and 3 head teachers and it’s never changed.

How is it a respect thing? You show respect by being polite to adults, listening to them, having good manners. Simply asking for permission for something pointless like this doesn't demonstrate respect.

I've seen excellent Ofsted reports for schools with no uniform, and schools with rigid uniform policies being marked down. You can't generalise.

That's fine, you can then just make it clear that you aren't going to listen to complaints about lost uniform. I assume no-one in your school thinks the answer is to make every child in school wear every item of uniform full time in school and ask permission before they can take anything off?

@Nanny0gg quite. Or any tie for that matter. Even in sixth form when they expect them to wear 'business dress'. So a suit? The girls inevitably wear tiny lycra mini skirts and undersized shirts. So it doesn't even look businesslike.
Most workplaces are much more casual anyway.
I prefer schools that don't have a uniform. Though they're quite uncommon in the UK.

This is a long standing rule at my son’s school. Seems like an ok idea. Discipline and presentation.

It's a hackneyed old argument to claim that uniform gets people ready for work. There is zero evidence for this. There is no uniform at college or university. There is no evidence to suggest that uniform helps with attention or grades. It's all conformist rubbish.

I feel like I am chasing you to argue, genuinely this comes with a conversational tone,

Not necessarily respect for the adults. A good school wants students to respect each other, themselves etc I suppose if it’s a uniform requiring to wear it then you need a reason to take it off- like being warm. Should they have to ask? I hear the argument for no. The difficulty is that becomes not wearing it outside the classroom because you don’t want to, and so on. That knocks on to the interpretation/enforcement of other rules and it becomes a pack of cards. It does sound hyperbolic to someone whose only experience of school is having gone to one, unfortunately it’s a very delicate balance for the staff.

Fully take the point about schools without uniform, the blazer rule is about the other schools though, so uniform vs no uniform would be another thread- which I imagine would be interesting.

If you’re bored and take a peek at some recent ofsted reports on secondary schools you’ll notice a pattern in comments about pupils’ behaviour and appearance as they move around the school. This is one of the big things they’re looking for.

Thousands of teachers across Europe manage to “get the bloody teaching done” (and quite effectively) without having to police uniform rules or even to pay much attention to what their pupils wear. And somehow they manage.
Maybe it’s not the students that cause the issue in this country? Maybe their bad behaviour is a response to being micromanaged in the first place?

Appearance is everything. Keeping a blazer on is an attempt at looking smart to the outside world. A uniformity, if you will, within the school environment, looking smart, neat and tidy....it's the impression people get of the school.

I’m a social worker, I judge schools by the atmosphere, the way staff speak to and about their pupils, the quality of relationships they build and the ease with which students speak with and approach school staff. I judge schools by the way they understand children’s needs and the barriers that are artificially placed in the way of pupils being present and feeling welcomed in the school community.

I literally don’t give a shiny shit about appearance - super smart looking schools often hide a multitude of sins. I’m also deeply unimpressed when teaching staff present a child not fully complying with uniform as part of their child protection report, which happens more often than I’d care to comment.

Totally agree with this

Oxford has dress rules.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/students/academic/dress

Yes, agree it's all conformist. The difference is that in uni students typically enjoy the tradition.

Absolutely true. But when you have chosen the place you want to work you then have to abide by your contract and rules when you work there. And there will be rules. That’s the point.
So no not utter nonsense. It’s utter nonsense that you can’t make this connection.

And how many children get to choose the school they go to? And so get to choose the organisational rules they sign up to? If someone has no choice other than ti be in a particular environment surely it makes sense not to impose rules that serve no practical purpose and actively present barriers to some kids education. If, as many people assert here, teachers don’t ever prevent children taking off blazers in class, why do kids need to ask permission?

I teach in a very deprived area, one of the worst in the UK for children in poverty, it would be very unfair to ask them to buy blazers or even full uniforms. We do all we can to pass on items free or cheap and we just want them all in attendance as much as possible so we don’t really argue about what they wear. In an area affluent enough to have a blazer as mandatory uniform I’d probably be inclined to believe that parents would label clothing so losing a blazer wouldn’t be as big a deal. I definitely don’t think it’s a good rule, it’s a nightmare for children with sensory issues, etc! But as someone who sometimes feels like a well paid lost property custodian, I can see why it’s tempting.

Same at my school, but then it depends how old you are and when you went to school. If it was pre-internet and social media days then behaviour and problems were so different to what we deal with today.

I couldn't care less what kids wear to school. The uniform is just there to make the point that they are judged on themselves as a person and not what they look like. That's all.

I'd be quite happy if they simplified our uniform and came down like a ton of bricks on behaviour issues.

For things like graduations. Not day to day.