To think asking permission to take off a blazer is utterly ridiculous?

[ShowJumpSally]

My child's school has just moved into a new trust. Clearly it's one of those trusts as the latest email announces how children will be placed in internal exclusion or be suspended if they dare to wear a coat in the building or take their blazer off without asking permission.

Schools consistently moan about funding, there's a teaching retention crisis, teachers are overworked and leaving in their hoards, TAs are underpaid and in short supply, children's mental health is worse than ever, but somehow there's time and money to dish out internal exclusions if child gets hot and dares takes their blazer off without asking?

Aibu to say schools should try focussing their time, attention and money on the real issues instead of nonsense made up ones?
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Adding another bit, I can wear jeans at work (or work trousers) and shorts (or work shorts.) Last winter I was pregnant and boiling even in the winter, so I wore shorts and the cotton t-shirts that became part of our uniform last summer. The t-shirts are much nicer than the thick poly-cotton polo shirts. (And because I needed a massive one to accommodate DS that's become a nightie. 😁)

Agree. Some posts on this thread illustrate perfectly why there are so many discipline issues in schools.

MN is the only place I know where people think ridiculous uniform rules are fine and if you disagree you need to take your kid out. I don't agree with uniforms in general and I find it weird that children are the only people this day and age that need to wear a suit daily. And asking permissions for this is preparing nonody into anything and punishing kids for uniform stuff is just a schools way of appearing strict and cohesive without having to focus on the real issues.

My sons’ (all boys) school has strict blazer protocols and rules around uniform/hair that might seem draconian to some. It was never an issue and was part of the ethos of smartness and general respect. 🤷‍♀️

Completely true. Maybe we should do away with uniforms altogether. No uniforms in Canada (except Catholic senior school and private schools).

Highest numbers of university educated population in the western world. Teachers paid well. Teachers pensions are generous and high. No continuous testing or ofsted. Teachers generally enjoy their job and becoming a teacher can be incredibly difficult (to get into uni for It and getting a position).

I didn’t wear a uniform for most of my schooling. The argument about levelling kids didn’t exist when I went to school. I know to wear a tailored dress, blazer and heels everyday in the multinational company I work for in a executive position. But then I didn’t argue over other school rules, complain or disrespect. I didn’t like all of them but followed them and that is what has held me in good stead.

My kids wear uniforms and respect the school rules. But frankly I don’t understand school uniforms at all. We had rules - nothing expletive, nothing offensive, nothing revealing etc so there were still rules and we followed them or were sent to that headmaster.

The individual rules aren’t arbitrary and taken individually don’t account for the fact that it is an overall environment for prep in the real world.

Utter nonsense. In the real world I can chose my working environment to suit my skills and abilities. I can chose to work somewhere with a uniform, create my own work “uniform” or work somewhere with a very loose dress code. I can decide to work somewhere pretty regimented (eg some call centres), or somewhere with an individualistic environment - hell I could even work for myself and make my own rules as I go.

Very true! My daughter would never ask as she's autistic so a stickler for rules, even if she was boiling hot and feeling ill she'd not ask, makes for an uncomfortable learning environment

No they don’t. But starting a thread on being unhappy that a child might have to ask a question, is a bit trivial:

‘Miss Smith, can I take my blazer off please?’

‘Yes, but remember to take it with you when you go to the next lesson, or mum and dad will be very cross with the school if you lose it…..if we don’t spend our days tracking down said lost blazer’

Absolute nonsense. Overalls were worn in PRIMARY schools in France up to the 1960s. Never in secondary. And now only a handful of private schools have uniforms (and there are very few private schools generally). All over Europe and the USA kids don't wear uniforms and manage to achieve academically and not descend into anarchy.

I doubt it's the only thing they were taught in 2 years. Teaching transactional classroom language that they want to use in order to get what they want is one of the best ways of getting kids yo actually speak in the language. 'Can I go to the toilet' is usually the most familiar one.

If schools have stupid rules then no, they probably do have no chance. How can I as a parent lie to my child and say that there are valid reasons behind rules like the ones OP quotes?

My son has sensory sensitivity and cannot stand wearing long sleeves. Happily his school was reasonably sensible about uniform, except that they had a Thing about wearing jumpers in assembly for some reason. They kept taking me aside and telling me DS should be complying with the rule, I kept telling them that he needed exemption as a reasonable adjustment. They may have had me labelled as Unsupportive Parent, but mostly they accepted that till one year he had a bit of a little Hitler as year head. In his case, I told him that I completely agreed with complying with the rules, so I expected the school to comply with the Equality Act. He was visibly shocked at the notion that he could be the one breaking the law, it was really quite fun to watch, but he kept quiet after that.

We didn't have school uniforms. Yet somehow I've managed to dress myself as an adult to the appropriate occation. And weirdly enough my hairband colour or nail varnish has never ever been a problem in any of the stuffy offices I've worked. I have also taken my jumper off when I've been hot and not been written up yet.

I did go to an international school for a year that had a uniform (polo and khakis). Never in my life have I spend more time concentrating on my appearance and clothes I wear after school or on free dress day. I actually really disliked free dress days cause suddenly there was so much pressure. All other 11 years I didn't have an uniform and I was so much more relaxed about my clothing.

And as a parent you are free to choose a uniform-less school. If that happens to be private then I’m sure the job you have chosen will provide for that.

I’d be interested to know if the anti-school rules parents have any rules at all at home, and if they do have rules do they justify that it’s different somehow? How do you honestly expect 1200 kids in one space to not become Lord of the Flies without rules?

If that is really true, your daughter's employers are breaking the law. It has been established that you can't force employees to wear heels, and in particular you can't specify that women must do so.

The vast majority of offices all over the country are casual these days about dress, particularly for staff who are not client-facing.

Like a PP said, I just tell my students that they can remove them once they’re inside the classroom. As long as they wear them when they’re entering and leaving my classroom then it’s up to them how hot/cold they feel when sat at their desk
ETA this is also because it’s a pain otherwise to be constantly disrupted to have kids ask if they can take their blazer off!

Why should they have to? It's not as if you have to ask your boss at work for permission to take off a jacket or jumper. And hardly anyone wears blazers outside schools.

I’d be interested to know if the anti-school rules parents have any rules at all at home, and if they do have rules do they justify that it’s different somehow? How do you honestly expect 1200 kids in one space to not become Lord of the Flies without rules?
Except no one is saying don’t have rules, I’m saying if you’re going to argue that school mirrors working life then have rules that are sensible and reasonable. Wearing a blazer makes no difference to a child’s ability to learn, unless teachers spend so much time enforcing the rule they can’t do their teaching role. Or the child is removed to isolation and doesn’t then benefit from the teaching offered by the school.

Theres a wide gap between commanding children to dress in a very specific, and outdated, way and having no rules whatsoever.

Agree OP. School uniforms are stupid. I had one with a blazer when I was a schoolkid back in the 90s - the school even tried to tell us we had to wear the blazer at all times on our way to and from school! Such a stupid, pointless incursion onto kids' autonomy. School uniforms should be scrapped - I'm in a country where they don't exist and it's so much easier for the kids and parents.

On that basis, though, you should be asking permission for virtually everything you do in school. Imagine if there was a constant cacophony of "Sir, can I open my book?", "Sir, can I get a new pen out, this one's broken?", "Miss, can I stop writing now, I've finished my work", "Miss, can I get a tissue out, I think I'm going to sneeze".

The reality is that good schools can and do draw distinctions. Yes, you must ask permission if, for instance, you want to do something that will disturb the lesson. No, you do not need to ask permission to get a tissue out. Nor do you need to ask permission to take your blazer off when you don't want it on.

I thought it was a stupid rule when I was at school and still think the same now. My 4yo in reception had the autonomy to remove her cardigan if she was too hot last year. It totally infantilises teenagers to not allow them to be able to judge appropriate layering

I hear what you’re saying. Personally I’m not of the ‘school mirrors life’ brigade. Up to the last one I trained and worked in rough schools in deprived areas. A little bit of cohesion goes an awful long way in a school community. That’s looking tidy, wearing your blazer and tucking in your shirt. I know it sounds far-fetched but it’s good for self-respect to look like you didn’t just crawl out of a skip, and when someone has not a lot else it can actually make a difference to them. On a hot day my first words would be ‘take your blazers off, loosen your ties, get comfortable’ but they would straighten up before they left. Nothing wrong with taking a pride in your appearance. For some kids a school uniform is the best outfit they have. Hearing their parents railing against the school teaches kids it’s wrong and they should sabotage their uniform, but being told they look smart can go a long way with some kids.

I think that's the point. Crush that independent thought.

So what about children with executive functioning problems or difficulties such as dyslexia which affect their organisational skills? Are you going to punish them every time so that they end up struggling even more in lessons because they are spending so much time in internal exclusion or are permanently scared of organising things incorrectly?

You picked one of the rules that’s utterly stupid so I agree with you completely.

I don’t have a problem with rules about hair colour or what shoes are allowed or lots of the other things that are basically pointless but I get very annoyed by rules that actually impact the welfare of the children.

Don’t limit their access to the loo. I know it’s a hot spot for bullying and skiving off but it’s also very necessary and periods don’t stick to timetables - if you need to change protection you can’t wait.

Don’t make them suffer being too cold or too hot for the sake of rules. If it’s hot, they should be able to take their blazers off. If it’s cold, they should be allowed to wear sweaters.

Taking your blazer off when too hot is not being discourteous or disrespectful.