To ask if you know anyone personally who got pregnant by lying about contraception?

[Pavemw]

Just that, really. I have an extremely close friend who confided in me at new year that her 11 year old dd wasn’t actually an accident. I have known her half my life and our kids are friends. She was with this man for a short time and the relationship did not last the pregnancy although he does see his dd and has been pretty good to my friend financially.

I can’t get my head around it. This is someone who I go to for advice. She’s always empathetic and kind. I can’t even believe she would have done it and I don’t know why it’s bothering me as much as it is. I don’t know her ex, haven’t seen him in many years. I almost feel she’s lied to me too, which I know is silly. She said she was late 30s, had been told her fertility wasn’t great and had had enough of being messed around by men, so when this next one seemed keen to commit she just went for it. I know she has been treated badly in the past and has always put her heart out there only to be messed about or strung along so I can almost feel how frustrated she would have been but… to do this? I can’t imagine it as I had my two in a happy marriage. Maybe I being horribly judgmental. I can’t reconcile this with who I thought she was all these years. Am I being dramatic?!

Risk is risk. Sperm doesn’t look at who consented when it seeks an ovum.

And for a lot of women it isn’t truly informed consent. If the man says he doesn’t like condoms and won’t have a vasectomy, what real choice does the woman have?

Risking her health how. How is having sex with one person, in a committed relationship where a conversation about contraception has been had, risking her health.

When my DSs were teenagers my advice to them was that if they didn't use condoms every single time they were leaving the decision for fatherhood in the hands of another person.

I would advocate for this in any casual relationship, but there comes a point when a couple are together a long time and commited. This is true at any age. Surely at that point they shouldn't need to be doubling up on contraception? They should come to an agreement where one of them male or female takes responsibility for it.

My ex husband for example, told me to get the coil taken out so we could try for children then told me 2 weeks after its removal that he didn’t love me anymore.

He told you and you just complied?

The level of risk of pregnancy depends on whether contraception is used. You don't seem to understand that.

If the man won't use condoms nor have a vasectomy then the woman can make the informed choice to not have sex.

Again informed choice and consent is important.

Things like HPV which puts her at risk.

I mean, not quite. We’d been together 9 years at the point, had obviously had various conversations about whether we wanted a family or not, and then it was agreed that was what we’d do.

The day before its removal I asked if he was sure it was what he wanted, as if he wasn’t certain he wanted kids then it was staying in. He said he was sure, go to the appointment… clearly wasn’t sure!

It’s you who haven’t understood me. You don’t need to mansplain contraception to me ‘randomchap’.

My point is a woman can get pregnant with or without informed consent on contraception, so if you don’t want a child, minimise the risk of a pregnancy by being responsible for your own contraception.

This is backed up by the law. You can’t tell the CMS you won’t support your child because you didn’t consent to its conception.

It’s sad that women often have to go through the rigmarole of implanting coils and removing coils at the whim of a man.

It just reinforces the need for more contraception for men so they can be in charge of themsleves. But as pp have said, men do not seem to want the responsibility of it.

Never even looked into that, in all honesty.

My understanding and personal experience is that there are very few couples doubling up. Either the man is doing something, or the woman is.

This is such an interesting discussion.

I really don't understand your point.

Could you try to explain further?

My point is that if a method of contraception has been agreed between a couple then any changes should be made clear and not be made unilaterally without both people knowing, so that both partners can make an informed decision. Am I wrong in your view?

btw, I'm not mansplaining, I'm just explaining as you seem to not understand what I'm saying.

You really do hate men don’t you 😂

I had the coil fitted because of some issues I was having, the man wasn’t given a choice.

I removed it because at the time my marriage was in a position that I believed was leading to procreation.

The fact I was lied to, is on him - everything else either wasn’t his decision because it was medical necessity, or was agreed upon by both parties.

I know of someone who did this, she was an expat in Singapore and he was an expat. She fell pregnant with twins, he was devastated as never wanted children. He is now in Australia and branded "absent father", she has got what she wants. I think it is moral abhorrent, it is such an unforgivable thing to do for the child's sake in my view, and there are other ways through donor and adoption if you really want to be a mother.

Do any of the posters so worried about all those poor men’s fertility choices and vulnerability to being “deceived” into sex have anything to say about this?

👆🏻

Go on then, I'll respond.

If a man strings a woman along for years, promising that he wants children in the future but in reality not wanting them at all then it's immoral. It's wrong and should not happen.

Equally, changing the agreed contraceptive choices unilaterally without letting your partner know is morally repugnant.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Is it rape?

what if the latter action is taken as a last resort in remedy of years lost to the former? Is it still so immoral?

Legally it's not rape. Even if a man lies about his fertility then it's been judged to not be rape

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53511729

Personally I think the judgement is completely and totally wrong.

On your second point, it's still morally wrong even as a last resort.

My experience on MN tells me that there are many women who’d excuse anything a mum wants to do, and especially who think that a woman’s ‘right’ to a baby trumps absolutely everything else. I’m afraid that I’ve become quite jaded in my feminism as a result.

This.

I’m glad this has been clarified in law. So nor would it be rape if a woman lied about taking the pill.

On your second point, it's still morally wrong even as a last resort

I just totally disagree. Why should a woman be forced to give up her chance to have a child because a man has lied to her for years to get what he wants and consequence free? It’s her body after all.

Well both the women I am almost certain did it were married. So no, if I was a guy and didn't want children I would make sure I took precautions.

I just totally disagree. Why should a woman be forced to give up her chance to have a child because a man has lied to her for years to get what he wants and consequence free?

So many men do this, and it’s totally socially tolerated. The reaction- ah well, it’s a shame / sad for her , he messed her about but she should have made smarter choices.
Yet if a woman dares to use her power to take back control of her own body and fertility, shes utterly condemned as a man trap.

I know someone who did this 3 times. Each time hoping for a girl and got a boy. Her husband had the snip after the 3rd whoops boy without telling her. She’s still very bitter to this day about it.

this pretty much sums her up as a person though. (Him too really).