To ask if you know anyone personally who got pregnant by lying about contraception?

[Pavemw]

Just that, really. I have an extremely close friend who confided in me at new year that her 11 year old dd wasn’t actually an accident. I have known her half my life and our kids are friends. She was with this man for a short time and the relationship did not last the pregnancy although he does see his dd and has been pretty good to my friend financially.

I can’t get my head around it. This is someone who I go to for advice. She’s always empathetic and kind. I can’t even believe she would have done it and I don’t know why it’s bothering me as much as it is. I don’t know her ex, haven’t seen him in many years. I almost feel she’s lied to me too, which I know is silly. She said she was late 30s, had been told her fertility wasn’t great and had had enough of being messed around by men, so when this next one seemed keen to commit she just went for it. I know she has been treated badly in the past and has always put her heart out there only to be messed about or strung along so I can almost feel how frustrated she would have been but… to do this? I can’t imagine it as I had my two in a happy marriage. Maybe I being horribly judgmental. I can’t reconcile this with who I thought she was all these years. Am I being dramatic?!

So you support surveys but do not support surveys? Odd that eh! Yet have no data of your own.

That’s what you took from my post 😂 I support accurate and reliable surveys. What data do you want?

It is a lie. I do not think it and have said it time and time again yet you keep repeating it so it is a lie. Nope I am not over-reacting, it is called a debate. If you cannot cope with someone who disagrees with you and resort to more lies to try and discredit.

Oh the sweet irony 🤣 it’s a debate but no one can debate about your comments? Ok.

The tactics used when desperate is to pretend someone is mental or on drugs.
You are really showing you are resorting to really low tactics because you got called out and are pissed.

See I find the tactic of people who can’t take the truth is to deflect with great big stonking reaches. Like “You don’t believe rape victims”. You must be REALLY butthurt to spot that kind of nonsense

You are saying you do not believe women.

Good grief and you call ME a liar. When did I say this?

You have said that countless times about those women who reported this. You do not believe them.

When have I said countless times I don’t believe women who report rape? Are you hard of reading? Or just a lying weirdo who can’t take constructive criticism.

Why would you not believe women who report?

I do. Like I’ve said. Why are you telling porkies?

If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Learn to debate without resorting to sad pathetic tactics like that as it really tells me more about you as a person and what you really are.

😂😂😂😂😂 oh the HYPOCRISY

I said ONE THING about your persistence in saying rape is easy to prove (it isn’t) and you throw the mother of all unhinged hissy fits, starts accusing me of all sorts of shit and then tell ME if I can’t stand the heat get out the kitchen.

Get therapy. You are not normal

Not all rapes result in bruising.

This was the kind of language I was initially talking about. Every time someone says about rape being hard to report you’d retort with a “no it isn’t” and spout nonsense like “there’ll be bruising”

Exactly this. Rape under duress such as with a threat of a weapon does not always result in bruising or signs of rape. To say rape is always provable because “DNA, bruising, a history” is quite offensive.

Also re the history - yes there may be a history but police don’t have crystal balls, evidencing history relies on reports, others speaking out and him getting caught

I didn't say it does FFS!
If someone is sleeping and not ready for sex then he is going in dry sorry to be crude which would leave someone sore.

Most parents do not believe their kids. I'm sorry you were not believed.

I didn't say it was evidence but it also can be evidence he is a routine sex offender which you would report to the police or would you not share that?

To say rape is always provable because “DNA, bruising, a history” is quite offensive.

So why say it?

Yes you did, despite your work you had to ask for reasons why convictions were so low and didn't have an understanding of the quota.

I never said all women lie - another lie of yours. Copy where I said to you that I think ALL women lie or if you cannot, I will accept your apology for lying in advance.

I can only assume you are being deliberately provocative or intentionally obtuse.

You clearly think that consent is only an issue if it relates to women. You clearly think women lying to their partners about contraception is essentially not a problem and that informed consent does not matter. All that matters is that the man did not use a condom!

I suppose if the woman were to damage or tamper with the condom, it would somehow still be his fault and/or totally ok? If not, what is the difference between that and telling your partner that you have stopped your pill or removed your implant etc? Both are invalidating his informed consent?

I’ll put it in simple terms- I think informed consent matters. For both parties. Every time, always. No if, buts or exceptions.

Given that Consent is based on a number of factors- one of which is use (or not) of contraception. Partners (even one night stands) agree on what, if any, contraception they will use before proceeding- however brief that “discussion” might be. I would agree that if neither party ask they are essentially consenting to having sex without any contraception and can’t really complain if the consequence is a pregnancy. However, One partner deliberately deceiving the other invalidates informed consent because if that agreed form of contraception was not, in fact, in place the person involved may not have chosen to have sex with their partner on that occasion. Consent cannot be assumed if the parameters are changed. That’s how it works.

The basis of decisions regarding contraception will involve what degree of risk of pregnancy each party is willing to take. Condoms aren’t something everyone (men and women) want to use. It is absolutely not the case that not using a condom means a man deserves to be lied to about his partners use of contraception! Why on earth would it? I agree it would be pragmatic to for men to use a condom if they are having a ONS or similar, but in a long-term relationship I don’t think it is unreasonable, entitled or stupid to expect your partner to be honest with you about contraception. And stick to what you agreed to use/tell you if they are going to stop using it. Not doing so, in a deliberate attempt to get pregnant is abhorrent.

For some couples (and individual men or women) a 92% level of effectiveness (the real life effectiveness of the pill) is an acceptable risk to stop using condoms, and they would accept a genuine failure. Others, a greater than 99% risk is a better bet. Again, they will accept the risk and deal with the consequences. Agreeing to that, and not using condoms in addition, is an entirely different situation from agreeing to totally unprotected intercourse.

If you cannot see that agreeing to sex in a situation where the method of contraception is 99.8% effective (e.g. the implant) is a) really not particularly irresponsible; and b) an entirely different proposition when compared to the 0% effectiveness if your partner has lied to you about having an implant (or not told you they’ve had it removed)-especially in the context of a committed relationship- then I can only say that I am sorry for anyone you have dealings with as you obviously do not view honesty and consent to be important.

i’ll put in another way- you are getting medical treatment. The surgeon says we could use a medication A which is 99% effective over a year (but perhaps more side-effects), or a different medication B, which has a 10% effectiveness (but few side-effects/risks), so you opt for A. But after thinking about it, your Dr decides to give you B. Or never had any intention of giving you A, because they have an incentive to use B instead but don’t think you’d agree do they told you about A, as this would get you to take the medication. So, you end up taking medication B and it fails. You are annoyed but then the Dr turns round and says “ but you didn’t check for yourself that I was giving you drug A. And you didn’t get another Dr to double check anything I did or said, so it’s your own fault”. Are you really telling me that you would find that acceptable. After all, the only that that matters is that you agrees to treatment. It’s not an exact analogy due to power/influence imbalance but similar point about consent.

Lube is a thing.

Anyway. I'm off to bed. You're never going to agree that not all rapes are provable and that not every victim has evidence. Even when I've given you examples of when those things are true.

Goodnight.

You tell me.

You really are very offensive, the way you think all rapes are so prescriptive.

Does this mean you think @HaddyAbrams and her friend are lying about their rapes? She said both didn’t have evidence of bruising but according to you that’s not possible because of “going in style (disgusting, grow up)

Listen resorting to fabricating mental health because you do not like ppl to disagree or you do not understand how to debate is pretty abhorrent.

You used a survey data as did I. That is what I took from you.

I am not the one making up drugs, mental health etc and then coming up with lines about me being unhinged and having hissy fits. I've not had one - all the while you are going on about bloody kittens for some reason.

Listen, you clearly panic and are using any tactic going to discredit and silence me. We all know who does this. It isn't a good choice.

Stop fabricating things. Stop pretending I am mental. Stop being abusive.
You really need to develop some debating skills as you resort to name calling when someone disagrees with you. It isn't ok.

This suggests you think rape is always accompanied by violence.

And it still does not explain why if rape is so easy to prove, convictions rates are so low.

You said it.

When did I ask and say I didn’t believe your “quota”? I know why conviction are low I don’t need to ask some offensive half wit with no understanding of how rape reporting works

I never said all women lie - another lie of yours. Copy where I said to you that I think ALL women lie or if you cannot, I will accept your apology for lying in advance.

Um, You may wanna put your vodka down love. I never accused you of this. Read the post again and then apologise please. I said YOU accused ME. How embarrassing for you.

Where? Given your inability to do basic reading I suspect you’ve misread. Again.

I have never said how prescriptive rapes are. You are again fabricating things.

Why are you accusing me of this now? I gave him/her my apologies that he/she had been raped. Why did you ignore that and try and fabricate that I think something else.

I clearly said that it wasn't reflective of all rapes in my response but yet again you choose to ignore that to fabricate.

Please stop being so abhorrent with your lies. It really does reflect badly on you.

I quoted you! You said it to that other person so I quoted you.

If that was you pretending it was what I had said then you were misquoting me again and fabricating things. Again.

You seem to have a basic reading issue if you keep misquoting and not understanding me. Or would not not be as sensationalist as you would like it to be?

I haven’t “fabricated mental health”. Thats not within my power. I simply think youre unhinged given your over reactions, lies and uncalled for hysteria.

You used a survey data as did I. That is what I took from you.

Eh? Make sense please

Listen, you clearly panic and are using any tactic going to discredit and silence me. We all know who does this. It isn't a good choice.

Not panicking. Laughing my head off more like. I’m not the one losing my shit and started lying because somebody didn’t like how I was wording things. What a total baby you are to take a bit of criticism so badly.

Stop fabricating things. Stop pretending I am mental. Stop being abusive.

I haven’t fabricated one thing. YOI have said I don’t believe women who report rape (still waiting on the evidence for where I said this). You then rather comically accused me of saying the same about you and stamped your feet like a toddler telling me to “say sowwy”

Hilarious and embarrassing in equal measure

Abhorrent lies 🤣🤣🤣 you’re funny. Stop making crap up like “There will be bruising”

When you doubted as to why rape convictions were so low. You had no idea.

More insults for no reason.

So first I was mental, then on drugs, not normal and now drunk. So you cannot quote me saying ALL women then so you lied. Thank you for admitting you lied.

Yes in some rapes there will be bruising. That isn't crap.

Show me the quote then.

Youre making very little sense TBH I’ve no idea what you’re banging on about

Are you gonna ignore the fact you got it wrong when you said I accused you of disbelieving rape victime? Are you going to apologise? Or will you conventiently ignore it?

Her body her choice.