To ask if you know anyone personally who got pregnant by lying about contraception?

[Pavemw]

Just that, really. I have an extremely close friend who confided in me at new year that her 11 year old dd wasn’t actually an accident. I have known her half my life and our kids are friends. She was with this man for a short time and the relationship did not last the pregnancy although he does see his dd and has been pretty good to my friend financially.

I can’t get my head around it. This is someone who I go to for advice. She’s always empathetic and kind. I can’t even believe she would have done it and I don’t know why it’s bothering me as much as it is. I don’t know her ex, haven’t seen him in many years. I almost feel she’s lied to me too, which I know is silly. She said she was late 30s, had been told her fertility wasn’t great and had had enough of being messed around by men, so when this next one seemed keen to commit she just went for it. I know she has been treated badly in the past and has always put her heart out there only to be messed about or strung along so I can almost feel how frustrated she would have been but… to do this? I can’t imagine it as I had my two in a happy marriage. Maybe I being horribly judgmental. I can’t reconcile this with who I thought she was all these years. Am I being dramatic?!

Not the definition of rape but OK

I just don’t get this argument. It’s not about that. The issue is very clearly around consent. If someone consents to sex with an agreed form of contraception then that is what they are consenting to and nothing else. A partner unilaterally deciding to alter that is having sex without the informed consent of their partner. That is wrong, totally wrong. It cannot be excused by “men should use condoms”.

I’d have no sympathy with a man who knowingly has intercourse without a condom with a woman who is not taking contraception and is unhappy if she falls pregnant. I’d also have less sympathy with a man who was upset his partner was pregnant after a genuine contraception failure (they are relatively rare, most “failures “ are nothing of the sort but are actually due accidental imperfect use). That said I’d also have less sympathy in the case of the “imperfect use” failure if he man had also chosen not to use a condom. As I said, having sex even with contraception carries a degree of risk. If you do it, you have to be prepared for the consequences. But consent is still important and agreed contraception forms part of that (even if it is an agreement not to use any at all).

However, I think there is a big difference between the risk of conception with zero contraception compared to, say, a woman using the implant on or other LARC. The latter is a risk many people are ok with, who would not be ok with the risk with no contraception. Moreover, in a committed relationship you might be happy with the small risk of failure. And accept the consequences of that choice, should it fail. That is very different to having a partner lie about their use of contraception. Or is consent only important when it comes to women?

Were you not using any contraception and relying on your cycle?

of course it's comparable. if consent is based on factors that are lied about or changed, then it's not consent.
a woman lying about being on the pill is just as much stealthing as a man removing a condom.
the contraception was a condition of the consent.

@jacks11 thank you for your excellently worded post that have explained things so clearly. I was struggling to find the words because this thread is making me so angry, but you have nailed it!

Yes it’s immoral to lie about contraception but it’s not the same as sexy without consent.

My point is if you are SO adamant you don’t want a baby, but you do want sex, why wouldn’t you use all precautions readily available? Not just rely on something that results in literally half the effectiveness?

No it’s not. One is an assault on the body, the other isn’t.

Thankfully the law disagrees with this half wit concept that they’re the same.

We mustn’t have been reading the same post. All I read was apologist nonsense

Playing devils advocate I guess you could argue if the man is happy to go without a condom it’s a risk he takes!

I find it funny on one thread I read this week, people are adamant a woman couldn't serve her husband a vegan dinner without informing him, but seemingly it's fine to have completely unprotected sex without informing him. Cool! What a healthy relationship!

it's not consensual if she lied and said she was on contraception.

A woman that is the victim of stealthing has the option of the morning after pill or an abortion. I appreciate that an abortion isn't a 'good thing', but the option is there if they absolutely don't want to become a parent.

If a man is the victim of a woman lying about contraception, he's fucked. She's clearly going to keep the baby and he's now got a lifelong commitment to the child - both financial and moral.

It’s pretty obvious and straightforward isn’t it but this thread is teeming with people desperate to excuse men who don’t take responsibility and blame women. Very odd indeed.

Who’s said they’re cool with it??

Yes it is.

I don’t think you know what “consensual” means.

That’s like saying if a married man sleeps with a woman who thinks he’s single, then he’s raped her

Maybe they'd take responsibility if the woman would actually be honest and say she's not on the pill? But that'd ruin her plans wouldn't it...

Oh that’s ok she can just have an abortion easy least no harm done and nothing could possible go wrong or be traumatic 🙄

The man could have had a vasectomy, or used a condom, or decided not to rely one just one form of contraception before embarking on an act he knows is primarily to create a baby. Or <shock horror> abstain. I mean if it’s a life ruiner, why run the risk at all? For a shag? Is a shag absolutely that vital that he risks ruining his life and finances?

Fuck me this thread - has a klaxon gone off on an Andrew Tate fan page or something? Why do you all hate women?

Didn't the women that 'consensually' slept with an undercover policeman state that they considered it to be rape?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670

But often the man isn't aware of just how high the risk he's taking is. Many men think they're taking the relatively low risk of having sex with a woman on the pill... when unbeknownst to them the risk is actually far higher.

Or maybe they could just anyway because it’s good sense? If women are so very untrustworthy why on earth are we telling men to rely on them??

The fucking infantilsation of stupid men is deeply embarrassing. Men not taking their own precautions are running a FAR bigger statistical risk of pregnancy than women. Not least because women are only fertile for 2 days a month, but men cannot guarantee the women he ejaculages in is not fertile at that time. Secondly, men knkw if they get a woman pregnant they have no say in the outcomes all. So with that in mind you think they’d say “Right let’s be extra sure and use a condom”. But they rarely do. And then women are blamed. Absolutely pathetic

Because one is in a vulnerable position and the other a position of power.

A bit like a teacher sleeping with a sixth form student, and why that’s illegal.

Not a man deciding not to wear a condom and taking the risk of pregnancy when he could reduce that risk massively

How utterly shameful you’re comparing this situation to a half wit man who just HAS to get his dick wet and then moans when that unprotected (or half protected) sex results in pregnancy

Oh diddums poor ickle uninformed men

So it’s now women’s fault because men are dumb?

Schools have been teaching about contraceptives for decades. It’s about as well known as it can be. There’s no excuse

No, totally wrong. Agreed use of contraception (or none at all) is part of the basis of consent. Agreeing to sex with a form of contraception is consent to sex with contraception, it is not consent to it without. If the woman was not using contraception, the man may not have consented to continue (or only consented to if a condom was available). Unilaterally altering a large part of something which forms the basis of consent invalidates consent.

Would you be absolutely hunky dory with a woman telling a woman he was infertile or had had a vasectomy when he hadn’t? Still feel the terms of consent had been adhered to? What about if the man deliberately damaged the condom or removed it during sex? Still think it’s ok, because hey- she could have also chosen a condom in the first scenario or hormonal contraception/a coil and didn’t so deserved everything she gets? No?? What is the difference? Or is it only a problem if the woman is on the receiving end?

All she has to do is admit she's not on contraception-how hard is that? It's utterly pathetic to even have to resort to that (and immoral, dishonest etc.) how can you twist this around to be men's fault? He's not consenting to unprotected sex-what are you not getting?

I agree but perhaps they should better educate themselves!