To ask if you know anyone personally who got pregnant by lying about contraception?

[Pavemw]

Just that, really. I have an extremely close friend who confided in me at new year that her 11 year old dd wasn’t actually an accident. I have known her half my life and our kids are friends. She was with this man for a short time and the relationship did not last the pregnancy although he does see his dd and has been pretty good to my friend financially.

I can’t get my head around it. This is someone who I go to for advice. She’s always empathetic and kind. I can’t even believe she would have done it and I don’t know why it’s bothering me as much as it is. I don’t know her ex, haven’t seen him in many years. I almost feel she’s lied to me too, which I know is silly. She said she was late 30s, had been told her fertility wasn’t great and had had enough of being messed around by men, so when this next one seemed keen to commit she just went for it. I know she has been treated badly in the past and has always put her heart out there only to be messed about or strung along so I can almost feel how frustrated she would have been but… to do this? I can’t imagine it as I had my two in a happy marriage. Maybe I being horribly judgmental. I can’t reconcile this with who I thought she was all these years. Am I being dramatic?!

I mean - the thing is that in the end the responsibility is to the child.

I do think that it is true that when anyone has sex, they need to face the possibility that a pregnancy is possible. There are even cases where people have tubal ligation s or vasectomies and that happens. And if it does, the parents are responsible for the child.

But I do think that if you could prove someone did this deliberately, where they discussed contraception and one individual deliberately misleads the other in order to create a pregnancy, in an ideal world there should be some serious , serious consequences for the liar.

The most appropriate consequence would probably be becoming a social pariah.

But in the real world, it would be difficult to prove and any action is likely to impact the child negatively.

Why should there be any responsibility for a child you did not want and somebody overrode your decision to not have that child?

I get it would be difficult to prove in a court of law. But some of the women here are quite open and proud of their decision. If a man was made aware early and chose to walk away he would be made a social pariah.

I don’t see how that’s right.

ETA: Sorry I misread your post and think we largely agree. Except I am fine with a parent not parenting a child they did not want and think if the other parent has an issue with that they should not use deception to conceive.

No, but I have been accused of this.

I was on the pill found out I was pregnant with exs baby. In hindsight I'd had a horrible stomach bug so likely pill was ineffective because of thus but I was young and didn't consider it.

He's accused me of trapping him ever since. .

People are going to think what they're going to think, best people can do is live their lives and keep themselves and dc happy

To me that would make him a vile excuse of a human. The fact you think it’s acceptable also says a bit about you.

What an odd assumption.

I didn't accuse anyone of lying. I simply pointed out that that's her son's side. Parents usually only get an account from their own child.

And in any case, her son is not innocent. Aboth parties should have been responsible for themselves and as another user pointed out, something was clearly missing in that boy's education.

How long did it take for it to be recognised in law as assault?

How is that relevant? The law always takes too long to catch up with sex crimes. Marital rape was legal until 1993.

If it wasn't so hard to prove, I think fraudulent pregnancies should/would also be prosecuted.

Under what crime? And how could you prove it? To whom would this benefit? Not children

I think deliberately deceiving a partner regarding the status of contraception is a form of assault. It's also a form of fraud, given the financial implications.

The thing is, men are also in charge of “the status of contraception”. Let’s not infantilise men and pretend they can’t take responsibility for themselves

Putting holes in condoms, lying about fertility issues or lying about the pill/coil/implants/etc is definitely immoral - as is stealthing and lying about vasectomies.

Yes but immoral should not always mean illegal. And only one of these is an assault on an actual body.

To equate a woman’s body with a man’s wallet, ego or right to not take responsibility is fucking abominable

I honestly can't believe people are STILL trying to convince this thread that there's nothing wrong with this! It's fraud, it's deceit at its highest form, it's abuse, it's absolutely disgusting!

Friend of mine was late 30s. Desperate for a baby. Couldn’t find a man who wanted to commit.

So she took herself off contraception without telling him and got pregnant with her then boyfriend. No discussion. She just did it.

Her now ex is not very involved with her son: she is fine with that and wasn’t expecting him to hang around. She has the baby she so desperately wanted and they’re doing brilliantly.

I support her choices here. She would have missed out otherwise.

Who’s actually saying there’s nothing wrong with it though? I see people stating the blatant fact that if men don’t want babies they could also wear condoms - something we expect teenage boys to take responsibility for (but not grown men apparently) - and for some reason this rather reasonable suggestion has made some posters absolutely seething with fury. It’s rather hilarious to watch actually

There’s actually a lot of posts saying they have no issue with their choice to use deceit.

The one above yours is one of many examples.

What it says about me is I think it’s acceptable for somebody to not parent a child they did not wish to have.

The pro-choice movement agrees. As the saying does: “Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood”.

I can’t say I’d lose sleep over it TBH, let alone be “furious”. There are much worse things happening in the world.

I also think a lot of these examples are probably not true or are second hand account told by someone with an agenda to stick one to their ex (eg…my friend’s wife…did your friend tell you that by any chance, funny that)

No one should be forced to be a parent and if a man wants to check out (women very rarely do) then that’s their choice - but they should absolutely put their hand in their pocket. Andif they don’t want to be in this position then maybe be a grown up and do all you can to prevent it. But to have sex without a condom then cry about “Oooh I was tRapPeD” is utterly pathetic and no man who blatantly didn’t take enough responsibility should ever be pitied or indulged

Yes, a number of woman actually over the years.

Except you probably won't be able to get a vasectomy unless you've already got kids.

How is that relevant? The law always takes too long to catch up with sex crimes. Marital rape was legal until 1993.

That's my exact point. The law hasn't caught up with this practice yet, but it probably will at some point and those people defending it will be looked upon with disgust.

Under what crime? And how could you prove it? To whom would this benefit? Not children

How is it in a child's best interests to be brought into the world via deceit with a parent that actively doesn't want them? Perhaps if it was prosecuted, then it wouldn't happen (as much) in the first place?

The thing is, men are also in charge of “the status of contraception”. Let’s not infantilise men and pretend they can’t take responsibility for themselves

You're basically saying that men shouldn't trust their partners. Should they demand to monitor their partner's ingestion of contraceptive pills? Would that count as 'taking responsibility'? If your partner said 'I don't trust you, and I think you're likely to deceive me into an unwanted pregnancy, so I'm going to keep wearing condoms.' would that be 'good' relationship?

Yes but immoral should not always mean illegal. And only one of these is an assault on an actual body.To equate a woman’s body with a man’s wallet, ego or right to not take responsibility is fucking abominable

I think it is a form of assault with lifelong consequences. The man, who has clearly started he didn't want children, would be on the hook for two decades of child maintenance and would be tied to the child - e.g. couldn't live/work abroad without abandoning the child.

As another poster asked, why should a man be expected to take responsibility for a child conceived via deceit rather than fecklessness?

The law hasn't caught up with this practice yet, but it probably will at some point and those people defending it will be looked upon with disgust.

What crime like it fall under? Not taking responsibility for men is not a crime. And how would it be proven?

How is it in a child's best interests to be brought into the world via deceit with a parent that actively doesn't want them? Perhaps if it was prosecuted, then it wouldn't happen (as much) in the first place?

Well men skip out on their kids all the time - even men who said they did want them then change their mind on pregnancy or after birth - should they be prosecuted too? Personally given men owe billions to their children in this country I think that’s where demonisation should lie.

You're basically saying that men shouldn't trust their partners. Should they demand to monitor their partner's ingestion of contraceptive pills?

Not saying that at all. But there’s a cheap, easy and readily available effective contraceptive available in most 24 hour shops that men could use to double up. There’s no excuse to not wear a condom, except for “waaaah sex isn’t as good for me with one on”.

Would that count as 'taking responsibility'?

It counts as a woman taking responsibility, not a man.

If your partner said 'I don't trust you, and I think you're likely to deceive me into an unwanted pregnancy, so I'm going to keep wearing condoms.' would that be 'good' relationship?

No but saying “To be on the safe side let’s use condoms too” is a good relationship.

why should a man be expected to take responsibility for a child conceived via deceit rather than fecklessness?

Because if you take the stance of “Men who are a bit dim and forget to wear a condom get a free pass on paying for children” aside from the fact even more kids will be plunged into poverty, I don’t want to especially live in a society where women and children shoulder the mental, physical and financial burden for men’s ‘fecklessness’. FFS schools teach kids “If you don’t want a pregnancy wear a condom” why can’t men be held to the same standards?!

But to play along - how would you police this? Men opting out of paying for kids. What does that look like in practice? PS it’s something men already do all the time. It’s very easy to trick the CMS and the service does fuck all for women as it is. Why on earth would you want to make it easier for them?

Seriously all this total and utter desperation to defend men’s right to not wear a fucking condom is such hilarious internalised misogyny behaviour, I’m cringing for you

Men can and do shirk parental responsibility ALL THE TIME

Ay the detriment of children’s financial support and mental health.

Why make it easier for them?

Yes, my MIL. DH and his brother were mid teens and FIL made it clear their family was done. But MIL decided differently and went ahead and had my SIL. FIL was furious and their marriage never recovered.

Rape is usually easy to prove and has lots of evidence in most cases. How is a woman lying fit the criteria of penetration with a penis without consent?

If you have been raped as I am then it is disgusting to compare this to rape. Lying is not rape. Especially when he has a responsibility and a choice which he chooses not to act on.

Why would a man put a hole in his own condom and then say he became a dad when he didn't want to! Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Rape is usually easy to prove and has lots of evidence in most cases.

What? No it isn't.

Yes it is. Most victims have evidence. There is almost always a witness to rape.

How would anyone even know there was a hole in the condom unless they spotted it beforehand?

”She put a hole in my condom” sounds like the kind of nobheads who are bigger, blame others and can’t let their ex go. I’m amazed so many people believe these stories

Rape in the eyes of the law is hard to prove but it’s not the same as not doing something to someone’s body. I’m mortified for the people claiming it is.