Son has just told us he is non binary

[Chipshopninja]

13 years old

Wants us to use they/them

He came out as Bi a a couple of years ago and I was fine with that but this has really hit me hard

I'm terrified that this is going to lead to hormones and surgery.

Don't know why I'm posting tbh but feeling crappy because I didn't handle it well. I cried.

I can't call him my son anymore

He's my only child

Has anyone else been through this?

I don’t feel like a woman

In what way @Tillow4ever ? What do you believe a woman 'feels' like? Are there any criteria at all to being/feeling like a woman - and if so, can you give any example, no matter how vague it might be? (Asked as I'm interested, not as a barrage of interrogation)

Personally I believe that a woman feels like a human who has a female body. (Notwithstanding the days you don't feel particularly human!)

Really good advice from previous posters, it's likely a phase, it's likely to be temporary, don't indulge it or over-react, kids try things on for size as it suits, my (now) grown up daughter (20yrs ago) like to be a rescue dog, about 4 months of barking and panting, it was very annoying, today it would be taken too seriously. He's only a child, probably not able to decide what to have for lunch, let alone understand the implications. Fortunately this fad seems to be dissipating, and kids will just be able to be kids again...

More to the point though, how would you frame this conversation in a way that the OPs teen (or mine) could engage where they felt they could explore these ideas about what it means to be a woman (or a man) without being shot down ?

As far as I can remember the posts were from someone picking on the OP for stupid things like 'not discussing with her husband' and 'posting on MN'.

It’s just pretty standard these days. Let it go. It’ll change again at some point quite probably. It’s just not ‘expected’ to be one or the other like it was for us. So of course they frequently explore the options available. They explore identity when they’re that age. It’s just what being teenagers is. Doesn’t mean it’s permanent. Like others said, it’s the new being ‘goth’ or ‘punk’ or whatever.

I think there are some really good books out there that other posters might be able to share.

No, men don't transition successfully to be female. They remain men, but a subset of men with particular characteristics and shared experience. They don't start having a female experience of life. If someone isn't biologically female, how can they be female in any sense? It's as if what you wear or how you act is all that counts in being female and chromosomes and biology don't come into it. That's the bit where the whole ideology just breaks down

Exactly. I am a biological female. But am I somehow more of a biological female when I wear make-up, dress and heels? Today, was I a lesser biological female because I wore combat jeans, boots and one of DH's sweaters?

That would be useful, particularly for a boy who finds toxic masculinity abhorrent

It is impossible to BE non binary …it’s a new word and is not an actual physical condition, it’s ridiculous pandering to a new trend.
Very few babies are actually intersex and are assigned correct gender by dna analysis.

Could you/he find any male role models (music/arts etc. ) that he might fit/click with that he could follow or read about?

I wasn't saying that being intersex is the same thing as being non binary - just that some people who are intersex identify as non binary (and not everyone is born with xx or xy chromosomes).

Just because something is a new word or concept it doesn't mean it not possible to be that thing - concepts of gender, and human identity in all spheres, have been constantly changing throughout human history.

So maybe you can answer my question @ThisEagerNewt

Please could you loosely define the social constructed gender of "woman" for me.

Adult, human female.

Simples.

Don’t we all know what a socially constructed idea of a woman is?

I’m not one - sat here with my zero biological children, greys coming through I don’t care about, haven’t worn make up in about 5 years and can’t walk in heels.

I don’t feel that changes my biology, or even what I wish to identify as, but I’m not what would be deemed as “normal” woman (and fine with that!)

Kind of assumed everyone knew what the gendered norm was, even if they rejected it.

OP, this is a really good short explainer I think. There are longer videos of Dr Hakeem which you can find, but this short one makes the points well.

Im sure it's probably pretty pointless to argue because it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that people change their minds about very often (other than through the experience of having a loved one who is trans/non binary). But respectfully, I really do think that being a woman is more than just being born with xx chromosomes and having female sex organs - I wouldn't want my identity as a woman to be reduced to that anyway.

I don't know how other people feel, but for me my gender is pretty essential to how I relate to the world in general. I also think that gender as a concept is very complex and not something that can be neatly summed up, but is to do with behaviours, how we're socialised, relationships, social expectations etc (and whether we conform to those social expectations etc). Within that complexity I think it's possible to identify as a gender that is different to the gender assigned to you as birth.

I'm sure you won't be satisfied with my answer 😅 but there you go

Thank you for this EagerNewt

What do you mean by gender? Is it different to sex? Only you mention gender being assigned at birth.

It's some pronouns. And they've had the courage to tell you. Offer love and support. Being non-binary means they don't feel they fit gender norms or stereotypes, or they feel they are somewhere in between. Some feel closer to one gender than the other. Talk to your child about where they feel they sit and how they feel about gender. Go shopping in Charity shops where they can buy clothes they feel comfortable in and maybe help with advice about makeup or nail polish if this is something they'd like to do.

Some non-binary folk do then realise they are trans so this might happen but it's not a given.

And worrying about hormones and surgery isn't worth the energy. The media do a lot of stirring on this topic. Many people who are trans don't have surgery or take hormones at all and some do so later in their transition.

More practically by the time you get a referral to CAMHS then a referral to a gender clinic then get on a waiting list it will be a good few years away before you even get offered hormones. CAMHS is about three years and the gender clinics are currently seeing people who were referred in 2020!

Removing phones or social media will just make them depressed and potentially suicidal. Don't be that parent. If it's a phase you've lost nothing, if it isn't you can hold your head high knowing you've supported them. Being CIS and hetero are the easy options - people rarely choose the difficult options to be non-binary or trans, it's just who they are.

Why are there so many people on here who know so many teens who are gender fluid or trans?

One had her daughter, niece, godson and 2 friend's kids.

I know of 1 and my kids are 12 and 14.

Well obviously traditionally someone's gender is assigned at birth by looking at their sexual organs - but what I'm saying in my previous post is that I don't think what it is to be a woman or a man can be reduced to your genitalia at birth or which gender you've been socialised as.

Those oversimplistic arguments don't line up with, for me at least, what the actual experience of being a woman is - I'm not a woman just because I was born with a vagina. My identity as a woman is much more than that.

I understand the worry that the OP feels for her child. My 18 yr old told me they were NB and then 1 year later announced they were trans and wanted to start hormones. Since then I have been avoiding making an appointment at a private gender clinic whilst also trying to ensure they don’t use Gender GP. But I can see that my child is hell bent on transitioning so I will have to make an appointment or they will go online for hormones. They have been bullied all through school because they don’t fit in. They are high achieving academically, expert at masking and got a late ASC diagnosis. Like many ASC teens, they spent a lot of time online and playing games but mostly with friends.
This has floored us, we did not see it coming. They were never interested in anything pertaining to the opposite sex. They don’t feel like they think they should and medicine has made it possible for them to change who they are and fashion a new body with hormones and surgery.
Are there any professionals in gender medicine reading this thread? Can you please explain to me why a parent such as myself feels sick to the stomach at the thought of handing my young person’s care over to a gender clinic? For anything else relating to their wellbeing I would be only too happy to have specialist medical treatment but for this I worry that they will be taken at their word and medically transitioned without thoughtful exploration. I cannot understand how medicine has allowed this to happen when the consequences of getting it wrong are so great.
I am so grateful to the whistleblowers at the Tavistock who were brave enough to speak up. And to Dr Hillary Cass for her report and recommendations.
OP is right to worry but is doing everything right by listening to her child and keeping communication open

What do you identify with that makes you have a woman's gender? Anything at all will do.

By asking these questions are you implying that the absolute only thing that makes you identify as a woman is the fact that you have a female body?

There's nothing else in your life at all that might feel different if you were a man? I guess i will just have to accept that because i can't imagine what that would feel like.

Not at all, I am asking you what things make you feel you have a woman's gender. I am asking for you to give me a couple of examples that make you feel your gender is female as opposed to your biology.

I'm currently on mumsnet because I identify as a woman - I'm sure there are men on here, but i probably would be a lot less likely to be typing this right now if I was a man.

That's obviously a social thing - but humans don't exist in a vacuum. How we relate to the world around us is our identity. Which makes those identities hugely complex and fluid