To think new mums are sometimes misled with the amount of ‘help’ to expect

[SneakyLilNameChange]

Friend recently had a baby and was speaking to me a few weeks later about how no one had ‘helped’ her in the early days. She has a v supportive partner who had 4 weeks off and did at least his fair share and then some but she meant friends and family really. The books she had read said when guests come she should go nap or ask them to do washing etc when in reality she felt cheeky asking them that and no one offered or started doing tasks/chores around the house. Something on social media suggested saying people could visit only if they bought a meal which she apparently suggested to a sibling who came with no meal and thought she was joking. Despite having all their family come, coo and bring gifts and support them emotionally she feels really let down.

It made me think actually that all sounds like normal family behaviour and telling women their visitors will roll their sleeves up and run a hoover around or bring meals is unrealistic. Some family will and it would be lovely to have that obviously but for most people it’s them and their partner who do everything. It certainly was for us!

I think it definitely depends on whether you have a partner or not too.

If the dad died or ran off during pregnancy, then I would hope that people would be willing to help out.

If you have a partner then it would be taking the mick to expect someone to come to your home and cook and clean for you.
Especially as you and your partner would have time off, whilst the person helping generally doesn’t.

If you had a baby through sperm donation and chose to be a single parent, again it would be taking the mick to expect help.

As others have pointed out, 'villages' are communities. We've lost it because we don't do anything to build it. Our reasons for that might be perfectly valid - work, shortage of time, etc - but the fact is, we can't expect to suddenly have a village materialise out of the people we haven't been answering the door to (metaphorically and literally) for the past umpteen years.

Whilst it's definitely crap if friends and relatives come round expecting you to wait on them hand and foot when you have a newborn, expecting people to turn up with food and a feather duster with absolutely no history of that being done for any reason in your circle of friends/family/neighbours is unrealistic. If, however, you were in the habit of checking if Doreen next door wanted anything doing when you visited, perhaps Doreen next door might have taken the cue from you and returned in kind.

A 'village' doesn't exist behind a door that you only open when you need it. It has to be built, and you have to be part of the team that builds it. In that increasingly rare true community, the 'village' doesn't just help raise a child. It sees that its elderly aren't lying on the floor for days before anyone finds them. It volunteers at the youth club. It helps fundraise for community benefit. It doesn't sit on its arse complaining that 'nobody does this, that or the other'.

There are all sorts of reasons why we haven't got so many of those communities any more. People don't have the time, etc, and that's fine. But we can't expect what we don't give. If we don't have the time, pressures of modern life, etc, we can't expect others to not have those same reasons.

You get out what you put in. And, collectively, as a nation, we've stopped 'putting in' to our communities. We put in to our homes, our little unit of 2, 3, 4 or whatever that lives under our roof. We only step outside our doors (again, metaphorically and in increasing cases, if MN is anything to go by, literally) when we need something. And then we get annoyed because there's nobody to help. They are all sat behind their own closed doors, minding their own business and only caring about those within their own four walls.

I agree. I had no help at all. My mum visited when DC1 was 4 weeks old and would just sit about as I struggled. But it’s what I expected and I now ensure loved ones get help as in “I’m coming round for 3 hours so you can have a nap”.

I think there’s a lot to be said for t’olden days when women would be in hospital for a week, midwives would take babies into the nurseries, mum, aunty, sister etc would all nip round and help. The world evolved and with it it took away from women, as it always does, and I think if I had had help I maybe wouldn’t have had such bad PND, and I think others feel the same

It doesn’t help when women, plenty on MN, take offences at being offered help by MIL etc or demand people stay away from the baby for a week. The post-modern entitlement doesn’t help at all.

Too many people choose to have kids and make them someone else's problem. You know what you're signing up for when you make the decision, if you think every parent gets support from family you're probably not wise enough to be having a kid!

The village cuts both ways. In communities where there is still an assumption of gathering round and providing practical support to new mums, the flip side can be that there is not much privacy. The assistance comes with an assumption of involvement in each others' lives in other ways we as moderns might not be all that happy with. I have grown up in religious community contexts which have 'thick' webs of relationship, where those who are needy are absolutely looked after in ways that would seem amazing to many outside the community, but you also don't get to 'opt out' and be individualistic when it suits. So there are two sides to it.

the longer version that I posted elsewhere..

The Utopian idea of the village that supports families with new borns is based on unwritten contracts between the villagers and the families where grandparents gave up their jobs / businesses / houses to help the next generation, looked after children so parents could work and in return expected to be housed and cared for in their old age. The wider village community each plays a part in meeting the needs of the community, with each person giving and receiving.
We have stepped away from that, to some extent and in some extend not. We no longer expect child care to be provided within our own family circles nor do we expect to have to take care of our elder family members. In fact, the broader state does that for us in the form of school from age 4 and old age care in later life.

We have also moved away from the utopian model in that we have sufficient income to have bigger houses, more things, more leisure activities, more expectations and more wishes, that take our time away from looking after our children and our houses. In a victorian two up, two down house, with three generations of family living in it, and a toilet in the garden, there was no time to think about cleaning the toilet, hosting visitors and engaging in intimate bonding with your child - you cleaned the front step, nodded at your neighbours and kept your family alive.

The upper layers of society could afford to host guests, have polished silver, starched linens and manicured lawns, but this was done by staff.
It is unreasonable to expect the Utopian village to show up unless you and your family has also paid into this village contract. There are and were, many issues with life in this Uptopian village - perpetuation of family patterns, oppression of women, abuse of children - and there are many benefits of the new societal model - fewer people fall through the cracks, exposure to outside influences is largely positive and people more are financially independent. We are in danger of idolising the 'indigenous' ideals without understanding that our modern world brings with it, many many benefits and that there is no 'ideal'.

Having said all of that, I do think we should think about how we want to be supported in the post partum period and that we should put steps in place to make that happen. Sophie Messager has written a book called 'Why Post Partum Matters', in this she explores post partum cultures in different places, including in Europe and talks about how we can build these in to our modern lives, working out exactly how much this costs and how we can fund it. Some of this will be in the form of paid for services, others will be in the form of reciprocal support. We can not expect other people to make us food, if this is something that we have never done for others, but there are many meal services we can pay for.

Mothers and young babies, absolutely benefit from being supported and many women find the early months, isolating and lonely. There are many forms of support available, drop in mother and baby sessions led by health visitors, mother and baby groups in church halls, pre and post natal NCT groups, community groups - I googled what was available in one medium sized UK town and there were about 10 free listings and many more paid options, where connections, friends and sources of support are made.

In the Netherlands, the kraamzorg nurse provides daily check ups and basic house keeping services for the first week after birth - 49 hours in total. In the UK, midwife and health visitor system focuses on the health of the mother and baby, identifying families that need more support and putting them in touch with the services that can provide that - however, this is no where near the level of cleaning and providing food. In many 'cultures' - (I use that loosely, as I do feel we are in danger of idealising cultural models that have been gently unravelled due to the harms that result from these models, outweighing the benefits and the benefits from a more independent society, outweighing the harms of a more interdependent society. I also say that hesitantly, as we absolutely do benefit from human interaction, service to and support from others. Somewhere in between, lies the perfect village, where we all help each other, everyone had enough, there are no bombs, no guns and no diseases - hmm... that would make a good song!!)... as I was saying - in many cultures, women support other women in birth and post partum, cooking, cleaning and looking after older children in the weeks after birth. There is a lot to be said for this model of support, but this is unpaid work... and most women in our culture do not have capacity to provide this service and those who wish to do so and be paid for this work, actually find it very difficult to be compensated for it.

too much for this thread. - probably!!

Yes, exactly this. If one of my friends was a single parent then I'd absolutely help out.

If however, she had a partner who was off work then why on earth would I be expected to clean her house- WTF?

I think she was lucky that her partner was home for 4 weeks!

Are there any involved grandparents? I was always envious of my friends with a least one willing grandparent to help out, especially when you’re ill and struggling to cope.

Both sets of parents had died when I had my DC so it was just me as a SAHP. DH went to work and he wasn’t much use until DC were school age, even then he’s supportive but not much use as he doesn’t drive or cook. At least he’s happy to clean and tidy up.

My dad never seemed to notice my existence until after I’d left home and he ‘let me use his car’ when he was dying and needed taking to hospital appointments. Mum sold the car after he died as she couldn’t drive. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I helped friends with new babies, watched them while they took a shower, had a sleep etc. I’m an average cook, so instead gave Uber eats type vouchers or dropped off food from Cook they could bung in the oven.

Sadly most of these friends have moved back to our home country post Brexit so I didn’t have this reciprocated but I don’t regret doing it at all. It deepened our bonds of friendship and we are still close now, albeit long distance.

I had a very difficult pregnancy and was very sick afterwards. I had a friend come stay for a few weeks to help out, and anytime one of my friends came, they arrived laden with food and shopping.

My inlaws were the opposite, zero help, nightmare messy visitors that wanted waiting on hand and foot, ate all the treats my guests had bought and completely blanked me, the mother during their conversations. They also overstayed their welcome every visit and as soon as they left the pressure was on to come back the next day. I hate them because of this.

This. The 'village' of old gave the 'villagers' a stake and a say in the raising of the child. Very much true in hunter-gatherer societies and still, I would think, in later multi-generational living, but also, to a lesser extent, in the type of close-knit communities a lot of posters on here are idealising. At the very least, people who are around helping out would have felt entitled to an opinion on the mother's parenting and to voice that opinion.

My kids are older now, but I can still remember the early days, especially after the first one (v difficult birth, NICU) when I was still in shock over what had happened to me, having visitors who expected to be waited on hand and foot while they 'helped' i.e. sat on their arse holding the baby for as long as they wanted while DH and I ran round after them providing cups of tea and food because they'd made the effort to drive to the house. There was one visit where I hid in our bedroom and cried because I found it so unbearable. Yes, I was all over the place, but in that situation, who isn't?

Knowing what I know now, if I visited someone with a new baby, I would take food and keep the visit short. I wouldn't hold the baby. You can admire from a distance.

I think what is a shock to new mothers is how quickly you become unimportant and how little interest people have in you, despite the fact that you've just gone through a life changing event. If someone has an operation, visitors come to see them, and asks if you need help. If you have a baby, which is just as much of a shock as major surgery, there's often very little concern for you at all. It's something that isn't spoken about enough. Women are just supposed to accept it, like we're supposed to accept horrendous birth experiences without complaint as long as the baby is OK.

Excellent post, much better expressed than mine on a similar theme further up.

'village' life is a mutual back scratch. There's been a collective decision to move away from it, and what most people who lament it's passing want is not a 'village' but a support system to be wheeled out at their behest and then put back in a cupboard when they don't need it. Then get pissed when that is only how it works if you pay a stranger for it.

You only have to look on here at some of the threads about how having Grandma help out isn't proving great because Grandma is a human being with ideas of her own and a direct connection, not a paid professional who is contractually obliged to do things your way.

We have become used to being 'customers'. If we pay a childminder, we can expect that person to do as we ask, because it's a transaction. If they feed our kids crap, or let them watch too much TV, we can say, 'you didn't do the job I asked you to do as I asked you to do it, therefore I won't be paying you or using your services again.'. Grandma doesn't operate like that. We can't treat her like an employee.

Knowing what I know now, if I visited someone with a new baby, I would take food and keep the visit short. I wouldn't hold the baby. You can admire from a distance.

@CheekySnake

Why would you not hold the baby?

Surely you visit to see the baby, why would holding it be an issue?

I’m struggling to see how your DH making visitors cups of tea is taxing.

I do completely agree with you about keeping visits short and I’d ask them to let me know when is convenient, rather than turning up or expecting to see baby in the first few days for a long period of time.

This!

I expected and received no help with either of my children other than my DH who was off for 2 weeks paternity. No issue.

During pregnancy, women are asked how they are and occasionally may be offered help.

Baby pops out and somehow the mother is no longer acknowledged, she’s there to do the jobs for everyone such as host them at their convenience and provide refreshments (and of course do the same for her family she chose to have, alongside a partner if there is one) while quite frankly being ignored for the foreseeable.

I’d love it if visitors (including parents and in-laws) said hello, how are you or even goodbye to me when they/we visit. Apparently, I am still invisible (except for being told when something needs doing) four years later unfortunately.

I wouldn't hold the baby because I hated it so much when I had to let people hold my newborn. She'd been taken away from me at birth and had been in NICU, I'd had to go back to the post natal ward in the hospital with no baby, and letting other people hold/touch her in the first couple of months afterwards was incredibly distressing for me, but I felt I had no choice. I felt I had to let people hold her if they wanted. Because if you say no, people get really snotty about it.

With that in mind, I always refuse to hold a newborn because I am so aware of how difficult the emotions/anxiety can be in those first few weeks.

Yes, you visit to see the baby, but you can look with your eyes, not your hands. And you also visit to see the parents, particularly the mother, don't you? Taking care of her needs is more important than your own need to hold a baby.

Ridiculous but there are a lot of mums around these days who either don't want to see ANY family if friends or expect them to arrive, do housework but barely glance at the baby. It's a really entitled attitude but I see posters on here recommending visitors to see the nb should be cleaning etc. Pregnancy and birth isn't an illness.

I’m the same. Same situation with one of mine in NICU too.

Ive had lots of friends who have had babies. I don’t want to hold them to be honest, they aren’t mine. Apart from my best friend who invited me over the day her dh had to go back to work and actually launched her 2 week old baby at me as she wanted a long bath in peace without her husband asking if she was okay every 2 mins 🤣

If I am invited to visit, I turn up with a shitload of cakes and treats for them, tell them not to bother making me a tea and don’t outstay my welcome.

It’s not difficult to be a good guest.

"Pregnancy and birth isn't an illness" - true. Both were far harder than any illness I've ever had.

I certainly wouldn't expect friends etc to offer to hoover or whatever, and I wouldn't offer it either. With my best mate, I did drop in several afternoons in the early weeks and took snacks (not meals) and held the baby while mate had a bath, etc. With her second I didn't do anything, because I had my second approximately 12 hours before she did.
My Mum was with us when our first was born, and stayed for about a fortnight, and she did do a fair amount of cooking, but mostly was just reassuring us that the newborn wouldn't explode if we looked at him funny. She also came for several days when DH went back to work after a week (self-employed) because I'd had a section. She similarly stayed for a fortnight or so when DS2 was born, and it was lovely to have her. My Dad took DS1 out quite a few weekends, to parks, museums, etc to make DS1 feel the whole world hadn't suddenly centred on the baby.
When my sister had her baby I helped out a bit, but mostly my Mum did.
I think expecting friends to start cleaning is odd, and I wouldn't offer it because it sounds bloody rude! I would think it's pretty normal for close relatives to offer at least moral and emotional support, though.

Just the females then?

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

When my DC were young I just had DH to help. No family help. Mum was still working and wouldn't have gone put of her way to actually help.
For desperate need I had a colleague of DHs .
My NDN did offer to baby sit so we could have an evening out, but as she'd never been friendly before that point I didn't take her up on it. She had grandchildren arrive soon after that and had no offers after that.

But many other mums locally eg in the antenatal class had loads of help from their mums so I can understand the feeling that others have more support.

I hate this. All this puts the blame on regular people. It’s greed within capitalism that has done this TO people.

It’s that stupid “it takes a village”. It’s lovely and sweet to have family and friends that will assist but it really should not be an expectation.

Not everybody wants to look after small children and that’s fine.

The only help that can reasonably be expected is from your actual partner.

(And tbh when they say “help” they mean from other women. They never say that to men.)

Also adults should really be able to use their words. I recall visiting my brother and wife with their going baby. When I arrived they asked if I would mind watching their kids for a couple of hours as they were exhausted and needed a nap.

I was more than happy to. But they asked. They did not sit their silently expecting me to magically know what help they would need.