Great relationship with SIL but SIL hates my mum

[pnakolada]

Is anyone in this position ?

It's very tricky for me and I have always remained impartial. Listened to both sides if they wanted to talk about it. Always had a good words of peace to say when they've complained about each other..

I've always told my mum straight up when I think she's being out of order or mean to SIL. I've never told SIL when I think she's being mean to my mum though as I think it will ruin our relationship.

I get on very very well with SIL and always have.

But lately, some of the things I'm hearing from my mum about how SIL is treating her.. I am feeling very upset for my mum.

I'll never talk to SIL about it as it won't be good for our relationship. I'm just finding it hard..

Has anyone been in this kind of situation? Any advice ?

Wow. You'd rather know your mother was treated badly, yet you won't open your mouth to stop it because you don't want to fall out with the perpetrator of this treatment?
Sorry, but that's appalling.

You are all adults and it's none of her sodding business how your family has worked both before she arrived and since, unless you father is abusive to her.
Yet you would rather maintain a friendship with her?

I mean this really kindly, but I think the real reason you don’t pull your SIL up on this is that deep down you kind of agree with her.

you clearly love your mum loads and are a lovely daughter, but even so I can see the resentment coming through your posts. You know it’s a messed up situation.

I think you are probably actually doing exactly the right thing in treading a middle path at the moment. Let SIL do what she needs to do. Explain to your mum kindly why she is doing it. Encourage your mum and maybe seek support for her to leave your father.

People have an amazing low bar on the shit they tolerate from their parents - there is a need to be loved and accepted by them.

The SIL seems to be the only one that can see how messed up things and that’s the benefit of being an outsider.

@Autumn38 I can see it from SIL point of view but I actually don't think my mum needs to be frozen out and I'm sad for my nieces.

But it's not my place to be like ' you need to hang out with mum ! '. I haven't experienced what they have with her. But I will continue to point out that the psychology behind abuse is very complex and that it's not entirely fair to blame the victim for not leaving.

Also if I start kicking up a fuss about it and getting overly involved, our family will be even more broken. They don't speak to my parents. Then they'll also not speak to me ? So it will just be me and my abusive dad and mum ? This is my brother, I only have one. I don't want to lose them. Neither does my mum for that matter.

I wonder if she has started putting down the grandchildren the same way she does you and your brother (even just once) and that’s was a flag that both your brother and sil said no way is this happening to them?

I can guarantee you you don’t have all the facts of every incident that has happened to your brother/SIL as there will be small things never brought up too.

I don’t think they are cruel. I think they are putting their children first.

Your mum is doing the classic bullying you two, saying she is better at stuff etc that kid bullies do when they are put down. To have that power when they are the bottom of the pile, to feel that control for once.

If your dad has threatened to kill her if she ever leaves and he has been violent in the past then she is probably terrified of leaving.

Staying at yours or your sil's is unlikely to stop him.

She is making a perfectly rational choice. Many men who threaten this do carry it out and the police rarely stop them.

Your SIL is entirely correct in keeping herself and her kids away from this shit show.

Your dad is clearly a very dangerous man.

I grew up with an aggressive violent father and an enabling mother too. I do understand now she was in a difficult situation as there wasn't as much help back then. But I don't forgive her for the damage her staying has done to me and my sibling. I am still very angry with her and if she had minimised the abuse then I would have also cut her off. My mum's dad was also very abusive.

By staying with him and minimising what has happened she is presenting a very dangerous message to your brother and SIL's children. I would make the same decision.

At the end of the day, being a victim only goes so far. You and your brother were vulnerable children and she should have protected you. At the very least she should stop telling you that you had a good childhood.

I think he's dangerous. When he looses control, he really looses control of himself.

Brother and SIL sometimes say they believe it but other times they say they think it's all talk.

However when they've had bad fights in recent years.. my bro has texted me and asked if I had heard from mum etc. when he knows they're home alone together and they've had a big fight about divorcing..

Then when I bring it up after, saying - see you are worried he'll do it- they deny they were worried. But we are all worried.

You sound like an awful human, I feel sorry for your friends.

Surely then you must understand why your brother and SIL want to cut your mum out of their lives? She calls her children, who had an abusive childhood, spoilt and entitled! She defends your abusive father! She is denying your realty. It's a bit like the narcissist's prayer, i.e. it didn't happen, or if it did it wasn't that bad, or if it did, you deserved it. She really isn't a safe person to be around her grandchildren.

You are coddling your mum you need to firmly tell her that she is correctly facing the repercussions of her poor choices and that you won't discuss it with her again.
Also you need to stop allowing her to manipulate you into being her flying monkey with your db and sil.
I'm sorry to say this @pnakolada but you are so far into the FOG that you can't see quite how bad a picture of your mum that you're painting, she's a manipulative emotionally abusive woman. She is manipulating you into lecturing and attempting to guilt trip your db and sil into seeing her that really abusive towards you, your db and your sil.
If you are unable or unwilling to end the cycle of abuse that you've now become a complicit part of you need to expect your db and sil to go NC with you aswell, because your choices and actions have consequences too

@thepariscrimefiles it's interesting you mention the word narcissist because that's what they think she is.

This will be 100% about protecting the children from abusive situations.

If you and your brother living in a abusive house where threats of murder where made and loud arguments went on for hours with violence are called spoilt and entitled by your mother because you had it better than her, is not going to be able to be an appropriate grandparent.

Until she changes her mindset on that alone she completely shouldn’t be near children. Because it means she sees it as normal to behave like that in front of children.

@Hoardasurass well that's the thing, I think eventually if I don't cut my parents off- my bro will also cut me off perhaps ? If I spend christmases with them, am I complicit ? It's really difficult.

I'm not trying to be complicit in anything, that's why I don't get involved. I don't want to lose my family entirely.

As long as you don’t become a flying monkey, try and excuse her behaviour or tbh talk about either parent in front of their children you should be fine.

however if you have children? Or when you do if you don’t currently. I’d expect them to pull away if you are still in contact with your mother and father because otherwise they would be complicit in watching you let abusive people be near your children posted too soon, and then your children would be near theirs spreading whatever nanny and grandad are saying to them.

Now you've said the abuse is so bad SIL feels her MIL is not prioritising the safety of her children it changes everything.

I know how hard it is to leave someone abusive. I also know allowing my children to be unsafe, and myself, is a cut off point for sympathy.

I'm not a flying monkey and I already have kids.

Then yes I’d expect them to start pulling away from you while your children continue to spend time with your mother.

If they believe she’s too bad to be near their children they will believe she’s too bad to be near yours, they will wonder why you’d put your children in harms way be being near her and start to not trust you with their children’s best interests or safety because you don’t believe your mum is that bad and excuse her behaviour.

Well, thankfully that has not happened. And this has been ongoing for some time. I don't think at present that my mum is dangerous for my children. I'm also always around when she's there anyway.

You remember how awful your childhood was. Don't you feel angry that you mum tells you that you and your brother were spoilt and entitled? I'm assuming that your children and your brother's children are growing up in homes with no abuse at all. Does she think that her grandchildren are also spoilt and entitled because their childhoods aren't as bad as her's was?

Have you had any therapy to discuss your abusive childhood and your parents' current behaviour? You obviously feel very sorry for your mum and you are sad that your brother and SIL won't let her have contact with their children, but I think that deep down you are really conflicted and you know that your mum's behaviour during your childhood and now is totally unreasonable as she is denying and minimising your abuse both by her but especially your dad.

The thing is everytime you defend your mum and her actions/choices you are both being complicit in your mum's emotional abuse of your db and sil, you are choosing to be her flying monkey, and it's that choice that will get you cut off by them.
Just from your posts I can see exactly why they think that your mum is a narcissist because many of the things that you've described her doing are classic narcissistic behaviour right down to using flying monkeys to get what she wants ie access to your niece's.
Your need some serious therapy to get out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) that many children of abusive families suffer and see how badly you were treated (and still are being) by both of your parents. May I suggest that you look at the freedom programme to start with.

I can see it from SIL point of view but I actually don't think my mum needs to be frozen out and I'm sad for my nieces.

@pnakolada - you are looking at this the wrong way. Don’t feel bad for your nieces, be happy their parents care enough about them to remove them from a very negative situation.

I don't think at present that my mum is dangerous for my children. I'm also always around when she's there anyway

Not dangerous physically but what about emotionally? The way she talks about you and your DB as spoilt and entitled, minimising your lived experiences, being a narcissist?

Also if I start kicking up a fuss about it and getting overly involved, our family will be even more broken. They don't speak to my parents. Then they'll also not speak to me ? So it will just be me and my abusive dad and mum ? This is my brother, I only have one. I don't want to lose them. Neither does my mum for that matter.

You don’t need to lose your DB or SIL - keep the relationship with them entirely separate from your DM. You do not need to fix the relationship between your DM and SIL.
I also think you need to keep your relationship with your DB and SIL to help recalibrate what a normal family relationship should be like. This is not your fault and not something you need to fix.
Your mother has made her own choices.

@Hoardasurass I understand. But I think if you asked my brother and SIL if they think I defend my mother a lot, they'd say no. I gently suggest, sometimes that abuse is complicated. That's all.

But if they're like - mum did this - I don't rush to defend her every time or anything like that.

My brother and SIL love me and we have a good relationship. I don't think we'd have a good relationship if I invalidated their experience constantly, by just straight up defending my mum every time something comes up.

I don't think at present that my mum is dangerous for my children. I'm also always around when she's there anyway

Not dangerous physically but what about emotionally? The way she talks about you and your DB as spoilt and entitled, minimising your lived experiences, being a narcissist?

If I ever sensed she was doing that kind of thing to my kids, of course I would do something about it.