Page 6 | To think that they could roll out mounjaro in less than 12 years?

caffelattetogo · 2025-01-01T18:15:03+00:00

I thought this was 12 months when I read it first - is it me or does 12 years seem like a long time to prescribe for all eligible patients? Particularly as we are told so many expensive medical problems are caused by obesity. https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/national/uk-today/24823250.nhs-mounjaro---will-eligible/

user243245346 · 02/01/2025 01:55

westernlights · 02/01/2025 00:07

I'm not sounding off about it.

Just stating a fact that weight loss is a calorie deficit in whichever way that happens and most people need to move to ensure that happens.

Some people assume that eating minimal calories is they key, yes you'd loose weight but it would deplete the body of nutrients and is not sustainable or healthy so yes, exercise is needed.

Incorrect.

user243245346 · 02/01/2025 02:04

ODFOx · 02/01/2025 00:20

A decade or so ago fluoxetine (the first of the SSRIs) was hailed as a miracle cure.
Before that ranitidine was the best thing for stomach problems with no side effects.
Both of these medicines became widely available faster than normal (ranitidine even became OTC): both have since been withdrawn because of potential life altering side effects.
The development of these metabolism altering drugs was originally for diabetes, so the initial risk/benefit analyses and subsequent regulatory submissions were done based on these treatments for a disease which killed, not based on cost to the health service.

The use of these treatments to assist weight loss is a different proposition: there are ways to lose weight without the risks. We really don't understand the full effects of such significant metabolic adjustment in someone without diabetes. There are going to be side effects which we won't see for a decade or even longer.

I would much rather that NICE wait to make a full post-phase III analysis before they start 'rolling them out' too freely. The NHS can't afford the lawsuits that the American medics will face in due course.
These can be life-improving medicines, but the side effects (apart from the thyroid tumours which are well known now) aren't fully understood yet and they should be a last resort.
I bought one of the earlier GLP1 meds myself: I'm certainly not against the use of these meds in principle, but I think that the NHS are right to be cautious.

Fluoxetine is very widely used and has not been withdrawn from use.

user243245346 · 02/01/2025 02:09

westernlights · 02/01/2025 00:30

@theduchessofspork

I'm not obese but I love food and eating more than 1200 calories so if I didn't exercise I would be overweight.

You don't understand obesity. And very very few have a tdee of 1200

CoverMySoul · 02/01/2025 02:29

I took MJ for two months with a lower BMI than is usually approved for treatment because of a separate medical issue.

I lost two stone almost without trying in three months. Incredible result, but these are the main - unexpected - takeways for me, that I'm still pondering:

I had no desire at all to drink alcohol (usually LOVE a couple of glasses in the evening)

My ADHD symptoms were improved beyond anything I thought possible

I have no desire at all to touch sugar/sweet things/chocolate etc. or fatty, unhealthy foods

Both on MJ, and afterwards, I only wanted to eat healthy foods as a rule

I'm not given to wild theories, but I cannot help agreeing with pps that there are industries with profits of billions relying on people - often women - not being able to conquer this stuff.

westernlights · 02/01/2025 06:47

amoreoamicizia · 02/01/2025 01:07

@Swalwey Nowhere did I say that made me superior, you're reading something into it that isn't there. If you care to look back, my first post was in support of weight loss drugs! What is important to me is that I will point out that it is indeed possible to lose weight through exercise and I know because I did it. The point is not whether it's suitable for other people, the point is that someone has said it is flat out not possible and I'm saying that it is possible. Not preferable, just possible.

Edited

I am with you, shaking my head at the responses that exercise isnt important. No wonder the country is a mess.

It appears @theduchessofspork has name changed to enable her to continue her patronising nonsense that exercise isn't required. No doubt a slimming world consultant and claims a banana is a sin.

FirstOfTheFirst · 02/01/2025 06:50

Many people are paying privately.

A cynic might think such a long roll out means the total cost will be much cheaper because many people will have not waited and paid for it themselves by then.

FirstOfTheFirst · 02/01/2025 06:57

Swalwey · 02/01/2025 00:39

Whenever these threads pop out, I’m amazed at how invested some people are in health conditions that don’t concern them - and specifically obesity.

The success of Mounjaro is demonstrating what endocrine experts are saying - that obesity is mostly due to genetics and to a flaw in metabolism. When you take the drug, that fixes the flaw, you eat less and you lose weight. It is phenomenally effective, hence why it is also being studied in relation to other conditions and addictions.

For a lot of people, that drug will need to be a permanent treatment, same as statins, anti hypertensors, insulin, etc. So what? Lots of treatments are for chronic conditions. I don’t see people on here bleating against antidepressants, eczema treatment, HRT, antihistamines and asthma drugs.

The benefits of countering obesity, on an individual and society level, are huge - physically, economically and emotionally.

If you don’t have that condition - good for you! Count your blessings, consider yourself very lucky, keep your judgement of others to yourself. If you have no skin in that game, what can you possibly gain from expressing your uninformed views about the lived experiences of people who suffer from that condition, other than a (false) sense of your own superiority? And if you need that to feel superior, isn’t there something for you to explore about where you could find self worth, other than in belittling others?

For me, this is the most sensible post on here.

westernlights · 02/01/2025 07:00

@user243245346

I do understand obesity. It's a simple energy in/out equation, whether you're 8 stone or 20 stone, so personalised.

Reducing calories both by activity and a healthy diet is the key to healthy and sustainable weight loss, note the word 'healthy'. Also minimising loose skin by building/not loosing muscle tone.

Please do not try to correct this very simple explanation.

Do you follow Team RH? He'd have a field day on the no exercise claims.

Ohshutupsimonyoutwat · 02/01/2025 07:09

Holy shit the amount of negative vitriol towards WL medication on this thread is staggering. I wonder what the real cause of the anger is?

AsTheLightFades · 02/01/2025 07:26

Swalwey · 02/01/2025 00:39

Whenever these threads pop out, I’m amazed at how invested some people are in health conditions that don’t concern them - and specifically obesity.

The success of Mounjaro is demonstrating what endocrine experts are saying - that obesity is mostly due to genetics and to a flaw in metabolism. When you take the drug, that fixes the flaw, you eat less and you lose weight. It is phenomenally effective, hence why it is also being studied in relation to other conditions and addictions.

For a lot of people, that drug will need to be a permanent treatment, same as statins, anti hypertensors, insulin, etc. So what? Lots of treatments are for chronic conditions. I don’t see people on here bleating against antidepressants, eczema treatment, HRT, antihistamines and asthma drugs.

The benefits of countering obesity, on an individual and society level, are huge - physically, economically and emotionally.

If you don’t have that condition - good for you! Count your blessings, consider yourself very lucky, keep your judgement of others to yourself. If you have no skin in that game, what can you possibly gain from expressing your uninformed views about the lived experiences of people who suffer from that condition, other than a (false) sense of your own superiority? And if you need that to feel superior, isn’t there something for you to explore about where you could find self worth, other than in belittling others?

www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/n utritional/obesity/
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/causes/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10541056/

Obesity can be caused by a clinical or metabolic condition; a few are genetically predisposed to weight gain, whereas being obese causes metabolic issues such as diabetes. Environment and education also play a part, yet those bought up on Mcdonalds and uhp foods often end up with a great 'relationship' with food and keen to learn about other types of fresh foods and cooking from scratch. Some of course do not.

Sadly, any kind of domestic science (note the phrase - where cooking, nutrition, budgeting, housekeeping, etc were taught) is no longer available, nor is the ability to run around a sports field because schools have sold playing fields, and the curriculum doesn't value outdoor activity any more.

I agree it is complex, but social acceptance of a 'condition' as we know, makes being obese 'ok', despite the complications it causes.

Since the inception of the NHS, health education and disease prevention has dropped from societal consciousness; if you don't have to pay for treatment, you don't bother trying to prevent illness

tweddler · 02/01/2025 07:38

amoreoamicizia · 02/01/2025 00:47

@JasonTindallsTan "Judgy fuckers"? Nice. You're the one throwing out foul insults here. By the way, I have been a size 20 and I'm a size 6-8 now. I achieved that through exercise. Not bad for something you're all claiming is impossible 😜

How much weight did you lose over what period of time?

And are you sure that you didn't change your eating habits are all over that period?

anon2022anon · 02/01/2025 08:05

Ohshutupsimonyoutwat · 02/01/2025 07:09

Holy shit the amount of negative vitriol towards WL medication on this thread is staggering. I wonder what the real cause of the anger is?

I have read a theory that a large portion of the rage is because if society as a whole is going to change (the population will be thinner) then the perception of attractiveness is going to change (someone of a size 8 in a room of mainly bigger people is currently going to be perceived as the most attractive by current standards, but may not be in a room of other size 8s). Subconsciously, this is causing people of that current smaller size to panic, as their perceived level of attractiveness could be reduced.

I'm sure lots of currently thin people would say that's not the case, but I thought it was an interesting theory. How do you maintain being the 'most attractive' if everyone else has the same baseline as you?

Tutorpuzzle · 02/01/2025 08:22

anon2022anon · 02/01/2025 08:05

I have read a theory that a large portion of the rage is because if society as a whole is going to change (the population will be thinner) then the perception of attractiveness is going to change (someone of a size 8 in a room of mainly bigger people is currently going to be perceived as the most attractive by current standards, but may not be in a room of other size 8s). Subconsciously, this is causing people of that current smaller size to panic, as their perceived level of attractiveness could be reduced.

I'm sure lots of currently thin people would say that's not the case, but I thought it was an interesting theory. How do you maintain being the 'most attractive' if everyone else has the same baseline as you?

Show quote history

Couldn’t agree more. And that rage seems to be mainly directed at women (I’m not specifically talking about Mumsnet, but on SM and media generally.)

I bet there are countless thousands of men quietly paying their monthly £150 for mounjaro or whatever and just simply losing weight without any judgement, fury or fear mongering (OMG HAVE YOU SEEN SHARON OSBOURNE?!!) thrown at them.

westernlights · 02/01/2025 08:30

@Tutorpuzzle yes I think you're right and that will apply to many.

Although I think frustration appears as anger on these threads based on people not accepting that long term lifestyle charges are needed to sustain the weight loss changes. Unfortunately many people are badly educated or in denial.

Definitely agree you barely hear or read about men taking using the injections.

Original poster

caffelattetogo · 02/01/2025 08:35

I think it's a complex issue, but given that so many people are struggling with obesity, it would make sense to roll this out to eligible patients (not everyone, just those with the medical criteria) as quickly as possible.

OP posts:

Mookie81 · 02/01/2025 08:40

westernlights · 02/01/2025 00:20

You absolutely can!
My food/calorie intake is roughly the same every day, however when I increase my exercise for a month (3 runs a week as an example) I loose weight, without amending my diet.

It's LOSE!!!!
Seriously what is it with this fucking word on this site?
Or is it all the talk of us fatties with our LOOSE skin?

Pussycat22 · 02/01/2025 08:50

Ohshutupsimonyoutwat · 02/01/2025 07:09

Holy shit the amount of negative vitriol towards WL medication on this thread is staggering. I wonder what the real cause of the anger is?

It's not anger it's despair.Dress it up however you like. The real answer is healthy eating and exercise. No excuses. Ever seen the film WALL-E ? That's our future. If there IS anger it's because of what people are doing to themselves.

Pussycat22 · 02/01/2025 08:51

PinkArt · 02/01/2025 00:09

You're right. I don't like hearing from someone who knows nothing about me or my body that apparently I'm just a lazy bint who won't walk to the shop, where I'm buying all the cakes. And I'm guessing you don't like to hear that I think judgemental pricks who think like that have relied for too long of feeling some sort of moral superiority over the gross fatties and they're bummed that they'll need to find something else to judge people for.
Much easier for me to stop being a lazy fatty than for judgey pricks to stop being judgey pricks though.

Show quote history

And another one!

AsTheLightFades · 02/01/2025 08:55

anon2022anon · 02/01/2025 08:05

I have read a theory that a large portion of the rage is because if society as a whole is going to change (the population will be thinner) then the perception of attractiveness is going to change (someone of a size 8 in a room of mainly bigger people is currently going to be perceived as the most attractive by current standards, but may not be in a room of other size 8s). Subconsciously, this is causing people of that current smaller size to panic, as their perceived level of attractiveness could be reduced.

I'm sure lots of currently thin people would say that's not the case, but I thought it was an interesting theory. How do you maintain being the 'most attractive' if everyone else has the same baseline as you?

Show quote history

You can be a size 8 and have not been blessed with looks. Size is seldom the primary attraction, the face is, rightly or wrongly.
Daftest theory I have heard in a while!

Isit2025yet · 02/01/2025 08:58

I’ve got friends own these jabs who are doing really well to shift their weight. None have got them through the NHS and all have said their food bills have gone down so much (probably because they aren’t buying alcohol at the moment) that it’s not actually made any change to their expenditure. I support them with their choices. Same as I do with anyone who commits to lose weight, join a gym, do park runs, walk more. It’s good. We’ve got one body and it’s up to us to look after it.

As to the NHS. Well, it’s not fit for purpose in any shape or form is it? If people know the side effects of taking a drug and the cost of it to the NHS is low enough, then roll it out. I can’t see there’s any Moral argument against giving obese people these drugs, any more than there is against giving them insulin, blood pressure drugs, statins, amputation services, chiropodist clinic etc. what’s the difference?

FirstOfTheFirst · 02/01/2025 09:08

anon2022anon · 02/01/2025 08:05

I have read a theory that a large portion of the rage is because if society as a whole is going to change (the population will be thinner) then the perception of attractiveness is going to change (someone of a size 8 in a room of mainly bigger people is currently going to be perceived as the most attractive by current standards, but may not be in a room of other size 8s). Subconsciously, this is causing people of that current smaller size to panic, as their perceived level of attractiveness could be reduced.

I'm sure lots of currently thin people would say that's not the case, but I thought it was an interesting theory. How do you maintain being the 'most attractive' if everyone else has the same baseline as you?

Show quote history

I've seen enough of these threads now to know that it is inevitable that when pushed to say why they see WL drugs as cheating (who/what is being cheated?), at least one person comes along to say words along the lines of 'because it devalues all my years of hard work and food deprivation'.

I think that's at the root of it - at least some of the time. The thought that the fatties have been enjoying life, stuffing their faces and being lazy and now get to take a drug to magically undo the damage they caused themselves rather than 'earn' their health through suffering.

NOTE: I do not think that way. I know it has not been years of enjoyment and I know the drugs are not a magic wand.

spinningisthebest · 02/01/2025 09:08

I am full of admiration for those who have managed to lose weight and keep it off through sustained exercise - I wish that worked for me but it just doesn't and I exercise routinely. I managed to quit smoking without nicotine patches but would have used them gladly if I hadn't been able to quit. For me, after a lifetime of yo-yo dieting, self disgust, terror of following both my parents down the route of obesity related diabetes and consequently dementia - I have heard dementia described as type 3 diabetes- the injections offer real hope. I love the fact that for the first time in my life I no longer have 'food noise' constantly. I no longer feel I must clear my plate - drilled into me by my parents, that I don't need to people please and eat or drink more than I want to. I no longer wake up choking on my own throat which happened within 3 weeks of starting , so not after significant weight loss and I saw on another thread there is growing evidence of benefits to sleep apnoea not necessarily due to weight loss. The injections are helping me with personal control- I understand calorie deficit yet have been able to maintain calorie equilibrium. I am a member of a support group on face book and the joy and hope that so many people are experiencing is wonderful to see - and if this means a lifetime on this medication for me that will be a rational choice guided by my very responsible provider. I am lucky to be able to pay for this- but as others have said I am saving money elsewhere in food. I found the Royal Society Lectures really interesting www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0026b2j/royal-institution-christmas-lectures-2024-chris-van-tulleken-the-truth-about-food-1-from-taste-buds-to-toilet with the explanation of how our food is adulterated now and will follow the advice to try to eliminate UPF as much as possible. But for those who have not tried the injections there are downsides with side effects - I have had nausea, constipation and diarrhoea over the last six months and had to move back down a dose to manage it - with the help and advice from my prescriber. I am so grateful modern medicine is giving me this chance and I will continue to read the evidence and take advice from professionals. I am not finding this course an easy option, but the mental health benefits are tangible. I repeat - I respect everyone who finds their path to better health, and I hope this one continues to work for me.

Pussycat22 · 02/01/2025 09:14

Isit2025yet · 02/01/2025 08:58

I’ve got friends own these jabs who are doing really well to shift their weight. None have got them through the NHS and all have said their food bills have gone down so much (probably because they aren’t buying alcohol at the moment) that it’s not actually made any change to their expenditure. I support them with their choices. Same as I do with anyone who commits to lose weight, join a gym, do park runs, walk more. It’s good. We’ve got one body and it’s up to us to look after it.

As to the NHS. Well, it’s not fit for purpose in any shape or form is it? If people know the side effects of taking a drug and the cost of it to the NHS is low enough, then roll it out. I can’t see there’s any Moral argument against giving obese people these drugs, any more than there is against giving them insulin, blood pressure drugs, statins, amputation services, chiropodist clinic etc. what’s the difference?

The difference is you can control what you put in your mouth and how much you move. Most of the ailments you suggest are a result of obesity. If not they are due to a persons physical makeup and can't be helped so fair enough.

FirstOfTheFirst · 02/01/2025 09:18

@spinningisthebest - what a beautiful way to express it.

Less than 1% of obese people ever reach and stay at a healthy weight again. It is likely that's because 99/100 are lazy, undisciplined idiots who don't know their macdonalds from their spinach? Or could it be that there is more going on that just how much people eat vs how much exercise they do?

The NYP recently did an article looking at the changes in US diets and exercise over the last 50 years. They surprised me by pointing out that calorific intake had actually dropped a little and calorific expenditure had grown a little in that time. So surely, people in the US should be slimmer? But obesity has tripled in that time so something else is going on.

I saw the Royal Inst lectures this year and was also really saddened to hear what food manufacturers have been doing to food that is akin to biological warfare (imo). The effect of which doesn't just make us what to eat more of ther wrong foods but also impacts how our bodies uses that energy.

This is complex stuff and whilst it can be comforting to think it's just a simple maths exercise, it's really not. Not least because 1) you do not control what your body spends most of it's calories on; it's not movement, it's existing and things like wound healing speeds or organ energy expediture are beyond your control. 2) you cannot control your body hormonal reaction to food scarcity or weight loss, which is controlled by mechanisms that have evolved to constantly try to take you back to your previous weight; they work well in a world where weight changes are a result of environmental changes like food scarcity but add complexity to a world where weight changes a choice you wish to make.

anon2022anon · 02/01/2025 09:18

AsTheLightFades · 02/01/2025 08:55

You can be a size 8 and have not been blessed with looks. Size is seldom the primary attraction, the face is, rightly or wrongly.
Daftest theory I have heard in a while!

Show quote history

Size can absolutely be considered more attractive than looks. I've been on plenty of nights out over the years, and I can honestly say that the thinner of the two people gets more attention, regardless of who is more attractive. Lots of people on social media, in reality TV- their attractiveness is subjective to the eye of the beholder, but the thing they almost all have in common is being a size 10 or under. The ones who aren't are subject to pity.

I'm not saying size IS more attractive, btw, but in society it is definitely used as a barometer for it.

Whether that is also reflected in confidence is another thing, but size does also breed confidence- I would say that most of us take a knock to our confidence when we put on weight.