AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

Nobody is steamrolling. Every penny counts as regards sorting out years of Tory underfunding.

If you want a private education you can have it but you will need to pay VAT. If you can’t your kids are in the same boat as the 94% majority.

It’s roughly £3k, fees rise anyway and you’d think any sensible parents would have contingency plans for fee rises.

I don't like the policy. It seems vindictive and unfair to introduce it in January. I also seems vindictive the way that it doesn't apply to all educational activities only those that take place in a private school. So the same dance class or orchestra even if open to the community will now have to pay vat if it takes place on the premises of a private school. It has been deliberately designed to target a particular group for political reasons.

Fundamentally I also see the charitable private schools as a good thing. They are much better than for profit ones as they have been set to be run in the best interests of the students and many provide a good standard of education. It allows education that isn't run by the state to be available. Different subjects to be offered, different approaches to be tried. It is actually much better for the education of young people not to be a business. That's why education is exempt from vat just about every where else in the world.

These schools also have a different dynamic where they seem to be more accountable and responsive to parents and students. Honestly at my son's state school (think somewhere like Mossbourne though it isn't) they just treat both the students and parents with contempt.

The private school I work at is hundreds of years old. They do enormous amounts of work in the community getting kids in to do gcses in subjects that aren't available at their schools, running free holiday camps for refugees etc etc. I don't think they will stop now. Just because other people don't think they are a charity doesn't mean that's how they view themselves. I think they see Labour as a storm to be weathered.

Also it makes me wonder if Labour are interested in economic growth at all? Why isn't it a good thing if some children are getting a decent education without the taxpaper having to foot the bill? Surely that's got to be good for the economy.

I used to be a tax accountant but I would get increasingly frustrated at this time of year with those who would quibble over their WFH expenses whilst trying to reclaim a car valet as an essential expense.

Also it makes me wonder if Labour are interested in economic growth at all? Why isn't it a good thing if some children are getting a decent education without the taxpaper having to foot the bill? Surely that's got to be good for the economy.

Exactly.

Its not means tested because it’s a luxury service. Free education is there for everybody.

Hopefully they will put up taxes too. Every penny counts .

The idea that education is a business is ironically a very right-wing one - and one that has been inculcated in particular by the Tories over the last 14 years, especially with the introduction of university fees. It’s a rather sad ideological change, which marks how thoroughly Torified UK society has become, even amongst those who think of themselves as left-wing.

On this point I am in complete agreement with you. I also used to be a tax accountant and it was an eyeopener to see how much money some wealthy individuals and businesses would spend on accountancy fees to try and reduce their tax bills. There can't have been much of a saving in net terms in some cases.

I would willingly (perhaps not happily, but resignedly) pay a lot more tax if we could sort out a proper system of social care and support for carers, have a fully functioning world-beating health system and good schools for everybody. As I said above, this would be an investment in our future.

I've read countless threads about VAT on private school fees and I'm well aware of the arguments on both sides. My child is also SEN, and in state mainstream with an EHCP. The problem is the SEN support system and it is that which needs fixing, so that it is better for all - including parents like me, who cannot afford private education for their SEN children.

The Academy Trusts have arrived on the scene since my children left school. I have the impression they're run as businesses. School land and buildings were handed over to them from LEAs. Did they pay for them? Are they restricted in what they can do with the land and buildings? Where's the accountability around them?

Yet another thing I'd have liked the Labour Party to look at.

They really aren’t run as businesses - they are exempt charities and cannot make a profit. They are run exactly like LEA schools in terms of the budgets (I’m a trustee of a MAT). It’s a pernicious idea that has seeped in that academies are businesses - part of the Torification of how people think about education.

But the VAT on school fees isn’t fixing the SEN support system and it may even make things worse.

Info on the running of exempt educational charities (state schools)

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g there is info on the transfer of land on page 15.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7b935aed915d4147621457/AcademiesasexemptcharitiesFINAL3.pdf

I completely agree..which is why this policy is a totally inadequate and pointless lash out at a section of society. We need a much much larger, funded by all scheme that might actually stand some chance of improving SEN support so that all kids can be in the position yours is, with an EHCP and a school that is free and meets their needs. @M0rnington is wrong when they say free education is available to all. It's not available to kids like mine who suffered from MH issues and EBSA in state.

VAT has nothing to do with something being a luxury or not. And education is never a luxury.

“But the VAT on school fees isn’t fixing the SEN support system and it may even make things worse.”

It is worse than that - haven’t they openly said they want to push more children with SEND back in to mainstream? Have there not been countless articles on how SEND will bankrupt councils? I do not understand why anyone is not worried about their child’s school, including state SEND specialist schools. We do not know what they are planning.
There has been zero open acknowledgement by Phillipson that there are now simply far far more children with SEND and complex needs than there were even a decade or two ago. She needs to go and visit more primary schools and talk to many head teachers as to what they are experiencing. It is an epidemic and they need to budget and plan for it accordingly. The earlier you intervene properly, the better the outcome is for all those children. At secondary level, there is an explosion of mental health issues and no, it is not as simple as blaming strict Tory schools or the curriculum. That is denial and will not serve us well as a country.
We also have 9.3 million inactive working age adults. Those are the real issues they absolutely will need to sort out sooner or later.

Oh for goodness sake. Let it go. I know pefectly it means.

And some of those adults (mostly mums) can’t work any more because their kids can’t go to school due to EBSA and the council hasn’t got funding for anything that will work for their kids (or not without months or years of waiting in which time they lose their jobs)

The shitshow of SEND provision is a massive avoidable drag on the potential tax take which is affecting the coffers for everyone

All I wanted was for you to explain why one arts subject is worthless but others are valid.

I’ll happily leave it unanswered. Though I suspect the explanation is that you’re just reflexively and unthinkingly against Latin because you think it’s ‘posh’. 🙄

VAT should be chargeable on these luxuries. It should be charged on the service provided regardless of the provider.

My son’s independent school ran the screener and they would have arranged and paid for the Dyslexic Assessor to come in and run an assessment given that it came back as ‘moderate’.

I ended up paying for this myself (£400). Within 48hrs from the original enquiry we had completed the assessment - severely dyslexic. The report came in a few months later - very spiky profile!

What happens in state schools? Do they bring in these Dyslexic Assessors?

I only briefly researched and it says that the NHS don’t cover these assessments. Do the local authorities cover it?

It is when you have a free option but choose an expensive option you can’t afford.

Yup.

It starts with fees and will end with cubs and brownies.

I will be interested to see where the outrage of MN lands. Will it be football club? Piano lessons? Ballet? Swimming?

These are all luxuries and should be taxed.

Whether it’s taxes, vat or both the fact is a lot more money is needed from us all which we all allegedly agree on so it beggars the question as to why an extra £3k a year out of family finances is ok when it’s tax but not when it’s vat. Unless some posters don’t really give a shit re send and don’t want to pay any more for improvements and can dodge taxes easier than vat which will be charged directly from private schools. 🤔🤷‍♀️

If the main issue for those worried about VAT on private school fees is the fate of SEN pupils attending those schools, I would be entirely in support of the conversion of suitable private schools to state-funded special schools, serving both existing pupils and those from state schools, as long as assessment of all pupils in terms of their needs is on a level playing field by agreed professionals.

Part of the scandal of ‘extra time’ for GCSEs and A levels (allocated to private school pupils in gross disproportion to their relative numbers of SEN pupils) is how easy and quick it is for parents or schools to buy the required assessments in comparison to the multiple hoops, waiting lists and rationing within the state education and health systems.

Having a single, universal, unbiased and unavoidable assessment for access to these new special schools would benefit those with the same level of need from all current schooling, and their creation would mean that those only against the VAT imposition because of its impact on SEN pupils would gave their concerns allayed.

But you won’t happily leave it unanswered as again you have brought it up and again you want an answer. I’m past caring that’s why.

“All I wanted”. Yeah that’s on you. I don’t want to. Again past caring.

I’m not going to dignify your goading with a passive aggressive comment about Latin being posh (and stupid emoji) as again you want an answer and that I am a “reflexively” and “unthinkingly” against it.

I won’t repose to passive aggressive demands or points. You went about this completely wrong.

For the second time let it go.